Using D3 Heads

[Springheel]

Ok, I'm going to upload aitest5.map, which has a builder guard with a pot on his head. The pot is in the tdm_props_items.def file.

 

entityDef prop_helmet_test {

"inherit" "func_static"

"model" "models/darkmod/props/kitchen/chamberpot.lwo"

"joint" "Head"

"origin" "2 -10 0"

"angles" "10 190 80"

"remove" "0"

 

 

}

 

What I would like to see is to leave the "origin" and "angles" as defaults, but be able to add lines like the following:

 

"atdm:ai_builder_guard" "origin" "0 0 0"

"atdm:ai_builder_guard" "angles" "0 0 0"

 

Where the first entry is the entity being attached to (is that called the Actor?).

 

I tested by shooting an arrow at it, and it definitely detects the collision (and the guard also reacts to it), so that's good. We just need to be able to attach the KO info to it and we're golden.

 

(Btw, it was very cool, I was in shadow, and when I shot the builder guard, the arrow bounced off the pot and fell to the floor. First he looked up, left and right, then looked down at the floor around him as if he were trying to figure out what hit him and where it landed. It looked very believable!)

[Springheel]

Ah, I've found a number of skins for the heads that already exist. More variety.

 

Not only that, but I'll be able to remove the helmets/glasses from the heads that had them, so that will give us a few more to choose from as well.

[ascottk]

What directory should the helmets/head dressing go under?

[Springheel]

Hmm, I would think models/props/wearables.

[ascottk]

Hmm, I would think models/props/wearables.

Sounds good

[Springheel]

Hmm, I've discovered a problem. There's weird proportion discepancies between our models that is causing problems when attaching heads. The D3 heads all look too small when added to the citywatch, though they look the right size when attached to the builder guard.

 

In order to make sure there is no space between the neck and shoulders on the citywatch, I have to put the heads at an offset of -10.5. It's possible the heads wouldn't look quite so small if I could leave the necks longer, but that won't work the way they're currently set up. And when I compare the two heads, the default citywatch head is definitely bigger.

 

edit: Hmm, it's slightly more complicated than that. The D3 heads are not uniform in size. It looks like the npc heads (betrugar, swann, etc) are larger than the other heads, sometimes by a significant amount. As you can see in the second image, the head on the left is a good size for the builder guard, but the head in the middle is too large.

 

What it boils down to is that the D3 heads won't be quite as flexible as I hoped...some of them will only fit properly on particular models and won't work on others. It will take me some time and testing to see where they will work and where they won't.

 

When it comes time to do our own heads, we'll have to make sure they're a good, flexible size.

[Springheel]

Oh, Ascottk, one other thing about the citywatch...the way they are set up currently, none of the existing D3 heads will work on them, as the model ends right at the base of the neck....I can get the D3 heads to sit right on top, but when they look up, you can see into the neck. In order to make that not happen I have to sink the neck into the AI model a bit, but that makes them sit far too low, as you can see above.

 

Two questions: any chance of leaving some of the neck on the original model?

 

or,

 

how feasible would it be to take the chain-mail coif AND the helmet and attach it to heads as a def_attach? that way the chain mail would surround the gap in the neck and could clip into the existing chainmail on the ai model without any problem.

 

Like taking this part of the model:

 

 

and then def_attaching it to the head joint. Do you think that would work? Then the D3 heads would just have to be offset so they fit inside.

[New Horizon]

Out of curiosity...are the low poly AI heads generic enough that we could just swap skins for the faces instead? I'm just thinking, most of the detail comes from the normal map...if the doom 3 characters faces could be made to fit our AI heads, it would make things a bit easier.

 

Spring, your suggestion of leaving the 'chain-mail coif AND the helmet' is what I was getting at earlier....except I thought it might be easier for us to swap faces rather than whole heads in some cases. Just chop the face out of the chainmail...and swap different ones in.

 

Based on what you're saying, it looks like we'll have to organize the heads for use on specific models...either that or make duplicate D3 heads in various sizes and assign them to the proper models.

[Springheel]

The D3 head textures are actually not great, and they're split down the middle, which makes it difficult to use them on our heads.

 

What we really want, IMO, is a bank of about a half-dozen heads, all without headgear. Each head could have multiple skins for added variety. Headgear would then be added using the def-attach system.

[New Horizon]

What we really want, IMO, is a bank of about a half-dozen heads, all without headgear. Each head could have multiple skins for added variety. Headgear would then be added using the def-attach system.

 

That sounds cool, but with our own AI varying in different sizes...will all the heads still be interchangable? I'm thinking we might see some problems between our smallest and largest AI.

[Springheel]

Well, that certainly could be a problem, based on what I'm seeing so far.

 

There's no doubt we could use alternate skins to create variety on our existing heads. If we didn't already have the D3 heads to play with, I'd probably advocate that as well. But it seems like a big waste if we don't use the D3 heads that are already made.

 

Sure, not all heads will necessarily work on all bodies, but as long as we don't expect them to, that's not going to be a problem. My plan is to add only the heads that fit properly to the def files, so that mappers will know exactly which heads they can choose from.

[ascottk]

Oh, Ascottk, one other thing about the citywatch...the way they are set up currently, none of the existing D3 heads will work on them, as the model ends right at the base of the neck....I can get the D3 heads to sit right on top, but when they look up, you can see into the neck. In order to make that not happen I have to sink the neck into the AI model a bit, but that makes them sit far too low, as you can see above.

 

Two questions: any chance of leaving some of the neck on the original model?

 

or,

 

how feasible would it be to take the chain-mail coif AND the helmet and attach it to heads as a def_attach? that way the chain mail would surround the gap in the neck and could clip into the existing chainmail on the ai model without any problem.

 

and then def_attaching it to the head joint. Do you think that would work? Then the D3 heads would just have to be offset so they fit inside.

I did add additional mesh to both of the city watch because of that gap. The elite did not have any chainmail above the shoulder armor.

 

The D3 head textures are actually not great, and they're split down the middle, which makes it difficult to use them on our heads.

 

What we really want, IMO, is a bank of about a half-dozen heads, all without headgear. Each head could have multiple skins for added variety. Headgear would then be added using the def-attach system.

If we want to keep the citywatch face then we'd have to transplant that face onto a complete head like the builder guard.

 

That sounds cool, but with our own AI varying in different sizes...will all the heads still be interchangable? I'm thinking we might see some problems between our smallest and largest AI.

Compatability is a major problem even with d3 heads.

[ascottk]

That's weird I had multiple attachments working a couple of days ago. Now the helmet attachment is showing as a black box:

I'm using def_attach1 as the hammer & def_attach2 as the helmet.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot to update the entity def for the helmet because I moved the models

[Springheel]

I did add additional mesh to both of the city watch because of that gap. The elite did not have any chainmail above the shoulder armor.

 

Was this recently? I think I updated yesterday, but I can't remember. I'll try doing it now.

 

If we want to keep the citywatch face then we'd have to transplant that face onto a complete head like the builder guard.

 

I think we'll keep that default heads that were originally attached no matter what. I meant having a bank of helmet-less heads in addition to the defaults, though that wasn't clear.

 

I just had a go at trying to add a different texture to the default citywatch head...it won't be easy to make him look significantly different without a modelling ap to redo the normalmap.

[ascottk]

Okay, I added citywatch_helmet.lwo & elitecitywatch_helmet.lwo to cvs as well as updating tdm_prop_items.def.

[ascottk]

Was this recently? I think I updated yesterday, but I can't remember. I'll try doing it now.

I think we'll keep that default heads that were originally attached no matter what. I meant having a bank of helmet-less heads in addition to the defaults, though that wasn't clear.

The regular city watch needs tweaking . . .

[Springheel]

Awesome! I can barely keep up with all the updates.

 

(btw, why such a difference in emblems between elite and regular city watch?)

[ascottk]

Awesome! I can barely keep up with all the updates.

 

(btw, why such a difference in emblems between elite and regular city watch?)

I just used the textures from oDD's files. I really didn't notice that until today It's reversed & looks blurred.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah. I knocked down the resolution to 512x512 . . .

[Springheel]

Any reason not to leave it full-sized? I would think the AI deserve a little more disk space for the extra detail.

 

Btw, what do you think about adding the chainmail to the citywatch helmet? Is that feasible? It would certainly look better, and more consistant with the default head. Might cause some problem with collisions though, since it's either 100% protection or 0%. I don't know if an attached model can be part solid and part nonsolid or not.

[ascottk]

Any reason not to leave it full-sized? I would think the AI deserve a little more disk space for the extra detail.

 

Btw, what do you think about adding the chainmail to the citywatch helmet? Is that feasible? It would certainly look better, and more consistant with the default head. Might cause some problem with collisions though, since it's either 100% protection or 0%. I don't know if an attached model can be part solid and part nonsolid or not.

The citywatch helmet looks terrible in that last shot because I still haven't ironed out the neck on the main body. Let's wait a bit to add anything more to the helmets & try other heads and bodies first.

[Domarius]

Hey I think I missed something, but just wanted to say;

 

The heads will rotate from a bad point if we use offsets. Like what Spring described with seeing under his neck when he looks up.

 

Did you work around that already? Or are you just trying to keep the offsets to a minimum so that problem is less noticible?

[ascottk]

Hey I think I missed something, but just wanted to say;

 

The heads will rotate from a bad point if we use offsets. Like what Spring described with seeing under his neck when he looks up.

 

Did you work around that already? Or are you just trying to keep the offsets to a minimum so that problem is less noticible?

I might need to taper off the necks like I did for the builder guard's head to keep neck clipping to a minimum.

[sparhawk]

The rotations work correct, because the offset is directly applied to the origin. It's not really an offset to the model itself.

[SneaksieDave]

 

Wow! The asian guard especially looks great (see?!) I can picture an elite company of the emporer's guards walking the richly gardened grounds, and you must enter the temple and steal the fabled katana of whatever...

[ascottk]

Wow! The asian guard especially looks great (see?!) I can picture an elite company of the emporer's guards walking the richly gardened grounds, and you must enter the temple and steal the fabled katana of whatever...

Except he's catching flies with his mouth . . .