Texture tutorial questions

[Tels]

Moin,

 

I am going through the process of creating a texture for DM. After reading (and actually amending the basic tutorial and reading a few others, there are still open questions:

 

* do we need a detail texture? Does TDM even support them yet?

* In what format should I save TGA files? (Gimp does only allow you to select RLE compression or not, and if the origin should be bottom-left, but nothing else)

* In what format should I save .dds files? The plugin uses a host of options like compression, format, and wether you want mipmaps generated.

 

Edit: I managed to get my "texture" into the game, but the normal isn't working.

 

One thing I missed is the material types. The Basic texture tutorial just skips these, and the only thing I could find on the wiki is this:

 

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p..._Material_Types

 

which is Doom specific. Is there somewhere a list of the different material types in TDM and their usage? I see that surftype15 is used for cloth, but for instance wallpaintings are used as "wood".

 

Since I am making a canvas texture, I think mine should be cardbox, but I am not sure.

[greebo]

* do we need a detail texture? Does TDM even support them yet?

We don't need them, but they are possible (add another shader stage) and you are free to implement it in your custom textures. Beware of performance issues though. One of ascottk's stone textures has such a stage (it's a black stone, IIRC).

* In what format should I save TGA files? (Gimp does only allow you to select RLE compression or not, and if the origin should be bottom-left, but nothing else)

We agreed on saving the TGAs uncompressed, because it only increases the workload for the engine before loading them into graphics memory.

* In what format should I save .dds files? The plugin uses a host of options like compression, format, and wether you want mipmaps generated.

This is described in my wiki article here: http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...le=DDS_creation

[Tels]

We don't need them, but they are possible (add another shader stage) and you are free to implement it in your custom textures. Beware of performance issues though. One of ascottk's stone textures has such a stage (it's a black stone, IIRC).

 

We agreed on saving the TGAs uncompressed, because it only increases the workload for the engine before loading them into graphics memory.

 

Ok.

 

This is described in my wiki article here: http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...le=DDS_creation

 

Cool, I missed that article. I can see that we should somehow move all the messy little articles to one big tutorial.

 

Right now every one (except maybe yours) misses some crucial detail. For instance, I didn't know I need to put the .dds into a different folder, or restart doom if I change the .mtr etc.

 

These things really should covered in on texture tutorial - I get on it.

 

Thanx for the tips, trying it now

[Tels]

Ok.

Cool, I missed that article. I can see that we should somehow move all the messy little articles to one big tutorial.

 

Right now every one (except maybe yours) misses some crucial detail. For instance, I didn't know I need to put the .dds into a different folder, or restart doom if I change the .mtr etc.

 

These things really should covered in on texture tutorial - I get on it.

 

Thanx for the tips, trying it now

 

Hah. Gimp lets you choose the compression method for DDS, and tick a box "mipmaps" but nothing else. No color weight etc.

 

Even after juggling the paths I can't get it to work. Doom shows my material in a base yellow color (so the diffuse map seems to work), but it is transparent for lights, and doesn't have a "bumpmap". Strange.

 

Edit: Never mind, I see them now, I was getting confused with the paths

[PinkDot]

or restart doom if I change the .mtr

You don't have to restart it. Type in console ReloadDecls and that's it.

Type Reload and press Tab to see what other things you can reload without restarting doom. (models, images and so on)

[Tels]

Hah. Gimp lets you choose the compression method for DDS, and tick a box "mipmaps" but nothing else. No color weight etc.

 

Even after juggling the paths I can't get it to work. Doom shows my material in a base yellow color (so the diffuse map seems to work), but it is transparent for lights, and doesn't have a "bumpmap". Strange.

 

Edit: Never mind, I see them now, I was getting confused with the paths

 

Hm, is there a specific requirement for the .DDS files for the normal map? I can see them just fine in DE, but doom says "cannot load image textures/tels/canvas_yellow_local".

 

Hm, trying a .tga works, so it seems that the normal plugin of Gimp just can't create the right sort of .dds Doom3 requires.

[greebo]

Yes, Normalmap compression has a different format (DXT5 RXGB) than diffusemap (DXT1/DXT3). The compression can only be performed with the ATI Compressonator and with a specific version.

 

Anyway, don't bother with that, we decided to not compress the normalmaps as DDS texturemaps can't be used with mapexpressions like addnormals(), which weighs more heavily.

[Tels]

Yes, Normalmap compression has a different format (DXT5 RXGB) than diffusemap (DXT1/DXT3). The compression can only be performed with the ATI Compressonator and with a specific version.

 

Anyway, don't bother with that, we decided to not compress the normalmaps as DDS texturemaps can't be used with mapexpressions like addnormals(), which weighs more heavily.

 

I used DXT5 (or at least I choose the option) but it still didn't work. Anyway, if there is a TGA file, it can always be converted later anyway. So I proudly present my first texture. It was supposed to be a canvas you can use at the back of paintings, but after seeing it in game it looks so like coarse cloth/wood twigs covered by plaster that I had to build a fake house front with it.

 

(the wooden beams are just some stock wood texture)

 

Current problems:

 

* too bland

* causes moire insome settings

 

I am not quite sure how to fix these.

 

 

Any tips welcome.

[greebo]

Current problems:

 

* too bland

* causes moire insome settings

 

I am not quite sure how to fix these.

The "blandness" can be resolved a bit by altering the diffusemap (create an overlay using some other irregular texture - that's how I created most of my stone/marble textures).

 

What's moire? Does it look to regular?

[Tels]

The "blandness" can be resolved a bit by altering the diffusemap (create an overlay using some other irregular texture - that's how I created most of my stone/marble textures).

 

Iwill try it. It is amazing how little small brightness variations look stark contrast inside the game.

 

What's moire? Does it look to regular?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern

 

The pattern is created by the normal map being too regular I guess.

 

In any event, is this texture even usefull? I am still toying around and warming up.

[Tels]

A material question for the masters here

 

I have made a material with a almost-transparent map. Following some example from ID, I used theheathaze vertex shader to distort whatever you see through the transparent material.

 

This works great, except if there are two transparent surfaces behind each other, the first one shows everything _except_ the other one behind it.

 

If I take out the vertex shader, the transparent surfaces stack, meaning you can see one through the other.

 

Is this a fundamental limit with the doom engine atm, or is there some trick to it?

[greebo]

I don't quite get how your faces are setup. Which faces using which shaders do overlap? Can you post a screenshot. Not that I'm a shader master, but maybe I can point something out.

[Tels]

I don't quite get how your faces are setup. Which faces using which shaders do overlap? Can you post a screenshot. Not that I'm a shader master, but maybe I can point something out.

 

Sure: (although I didn't want to spoil the effect for others

 

You can see behind the big one in the center, you see a corner of the small crystal on the wall.

 

If I enable the heat haze effect (aka uncomment it), you can no longer see the edge of the smaller one through the front. It is like the surfaces at the front only draw *everyting else* behind them, but not other surfaces of the same type.

 

The heathaze effect is what makes stuff behind the crystal "wobble" when you move around and it looks quite cool (although it is probably wrong for polishes crystal faces anyway)

 

[greebo]

Ah, I see what you mean. My guess is that the fragment shader is not using the current colorbuffer but the _currentRender texture as reference when calculating the "wobble" effect. So, both fragment shaders use the same base image, but they don't add up.

[Tels]

Ah, I see what you mean. My guess is that the fragment shader is not using the current colorbuffer but the _currentRender texture as reference when calculating the "wobble" effect. So, both fragment shaders use the same base image, but they don't add up.

 

Yes there is a _currentRender in it. With what would I need to replace this? The problem is that there is almost zero documentation on that stuff, even the official docs just list quite a lot of thing without ever explaining them

 

Here is the best I found so far:

 

http://www.iddevnet.com/doom3/materials.php

 

Ah and I found this:

 

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic...ghlight=scratch

 

That will come in handy..*bwahahaha

[Tels]

Ah, I see what you mean. My guess is that the fragment shader is not using the current colorbuffer but the _currentRender texture as reference when calculating the "wobble" effect. So, both fragment shaders use the same base image, but they don't add up.

 

Ah, replacing _currentRender with _scratch gives a VERY cool effect - although not what I wanted This warrants more toying around.

 

Tels

[Springheel]

When I was playing around with underwater overlays, I found that vertex shaders would not 'show through' each other.

 

The problem is that there is almost zero documentation on that stuff, even the official docs just list quite a lot of thing without ever explaining them

 

Welcome to modding.

[Tels]

When I was playing around with underwater overlays, I found that vertex shaders would not 'show through' each other.

Welcome to modding.

 

I intend to fix the doc issue with our wiki, tho

[angua]

There is a sort keyword which is sometimes used on some original doom textures (mostly in the particle materials located in pak000.pk4 I think) but I don't know if that helps.

 

I've also noticed that the vertex programs (water waves...) mess around with translucent stuff in front of them.

[Tels]

There is a sort keyword which is sometimes used on some original doom textures (mostly in the particle materials located in pak000.pk4 I think) but I don't know if that helps.

 

I've also noticed that the vertex programs (water waves...) mess around with translucent stuff in front of them.

 

As far as I know, this is just how it is. Even the ID guys knew this and setup stuff so that the player doesn't have a weapon if he is in front of large glass windows etc.

 

Maybe fixable if the renderer goes open source.

[Baddcog]

@greebo, nice work on that dds article.

 

--EDIT

Here's the glass that is current for the flasks and gauges, at least that's what I'm using it for. anyway, it's in mechanical.mtr. please don't change it but feel free to use it as a base for something better

bc_gaugeglass
{
noshadows
noselfshadow
translucent
glass

qer_editorimage	textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass
{
	blend	diffusemap 
	map textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass2
	rgb 0.2
}

{
	if ( parm11 >= 0.5 )
	blend  add
	map	textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass
	rgb 0.1
}
}

 

I think normals would be the way to go with bumps in the textures instead of using shader fx

[Tels]

@greebo, nice work on that dds article.

 

--EDIT

Here's the glass that is current for the flasks and gauges, at least that's what I'm using it for. anyway, it's in mechanical.mtr. please don't change it but feel free to use it as a base for something better

bc_gaugeglass
{
noshadows
noselfshadow
translucent
glass

qer_editorimage	textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass
{
	blend	diffusemap 
	map textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass2
	rgb 0.2
}

{
	if ( parm11 >= 0.5 )
	blend  add
	map	textures/darkmod/sfx/whiteglass
	rgb 0.1
}
}

 

Have you looked at my glass shaders? They are quite alot more complicated

 

(I admit I haven't tried frobbing my glass, maybe I can (have to) use only one stage as your frob does.

 

I think normals would be the way to go with bumps in the textures instead of using shader fx

 

I will toy around with this. But we needed "flat" glass, too.

[greebo]

I went in and updated most of the texture-creation-related wiki articles, foremost this one:

 

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...to_The_Dark_Mod

 

I also consolidated the article with the guidelines and removed the old CVS screenshot:

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...ture_Guidelines

 

And this one has been updated to reflect the latest reorg (there was still redbrick_wall1 as example, which is something we didn't want):

 

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...c_Material_File

 

I'm still not entirely happy with all these articles, as Tels pointed out, it's a bit messy (there is another one here: Texture Creation Tutorial, which I didn't touch.

[Tels]

I went in and updated most of the texture-creation-related wiki articles, foremost this one:

 

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...to_The_Dark_Mod

 

I also consolidated the article with the guidelines and removed the old CVS screenshot:

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...ture_Guidelines

 

And this one has been updated to reflect the latest reorg (there was still redbrick_wall1 as example, which is something we didn't want):

 

http://www.thirdfilms.com/darkwiki/index.p...c_Material_File

 

I'm still not entirely happy with all these articles, as Tels pointed out, it's a bit messy (there is another one here: Texture Creation Tutorial, which I didn't touch.

 

Thanx a lot I saw you working while I updated "Texture Creation Tutorial", so I left everythign alone for now

 

We really should consolidate this into one or two tutorials.

[Gildoran]

* do we need a detail texture? Does TDM even support them yet?

*cough*wiki*cough*

 

You don't need a detail texture, but they're very cheap if you want to do one.