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Citywatch rig


squill
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Can you check and see what they were set to on the old model? If there is a difference then that is probably the issue. If not I'm stumped.
The only difference is the position. Rotations for both the neck and head bones on both the new and old skeleton, are all 0,0,0. There's not much else to see in the properties pane for these 2 bones other than translation, rotation, and a couple of other settings all set to 0 on both skeletons anyway.

 

I can't speak for why it was named that way (maybe just to organize them in groups, like we have tdm_ai_builder_* tdm_ai_undead_*), but the entityDef name is still atdm:ai_merc_proguard, so it may be confusing if the def file name is inconsistent with the entityDef name.

It wasn't the only inconsistency - the model name was also missing the merc prefix. I found several other occourances of the merc prefix (person type, ragdoll, etc) and removed them too. No more merc.

 

There is also a merc_elite, is anyone using that? It's the only entity left with a "merc" in the name. I'll remove merc there too if it's ok?

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The only difference is the position. Rotations for both the neck and head bones on both the new and old skeleton, are all 0,0,0. There's not much else to see in the properties pane for these 2 bones other than translation, rotation, and a couple of other settings all set to 0 on both skeletons anyway.

 

 

It wasn't the only inconsistency - the model name was also missing the merc prefix. I found several other occourances of the merc prefix (person type, ragdoll, etc) and removed them too. No more merc.

 

There is also a merc_elite, is anyone using that? It's the only entity left with a "merc" in the name. I'll remove merc there too if it's ok?

 

Yeah, for consistency I would vote for that. However, maybe it should be named "atdm:ai_eliteguard"? (It is a guard, right?)

 

Btw, you need to add the change names to the following file:

 

devel/manifests/fixup.txt

 

I added the merc change for you, but if you rename the elite, please add it there.

 

(A script using this data is devel/fixup.pl - which I still need to adapt for other files than map files *sigh* So little time :(

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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The only difference is the position. Rotations for both the neck and head bones on both the new and old skeleton, are all 0,0,0. There's not much else to see in the properties pane for these 2 bones other than translation, rotation, and a couple of other settings all set to 0 on both skeletons anyway.

 

Could there be anything in the idle animation itself that is rotating the head bone?

 

There is also a merc_elite, is anyone using that? It's the only entity left with a "merc" in the name. I'll remove merc there too if it's ok?

 

Yeah, eliteguard or elite_guard would be fine.

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i've checked some more differences between the proguard and citywatch by importing the md5mesh files of the citywatch into maya and found the following:

post-322-1237645219_thumb.jpg

As you can see the rotation axis of Z and Y are swapped on the citywatch rig.The fact that the head works on the old rig is because it's using the same orientation.

post-322-1237645233_thumb.jpg

 

There are also an awful lot of joints for the head to control the face.

 

@Domarius

A minor note. I noticed the mesh and anim files reported to have 62 joints. So i checked the proguard_export.mb file and found it was missing the extra Pelvis2 joint.

 

I've replaced the file and re-exported the mesh and animations. The scale of the animation was set to 1 in the def file but the mesh is exported at 0.97. The mesh and animation scale should be the same because the animation scales the model so i've set this also to 0.97.

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Good find, Squill! :)

 

What's the best way to proceed then? I suspect we have two choices--modify the rotation of the head joint in the new skeleton, or modify the rotation of all the heads. The second one is probably more work. Is the former a realistic option or will it just cause other problems?

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i've checked some more differences between the proguard and citywatch by importing the md5mesh files of the citywatch into maya. As you can see the rotation axis of Z and Y are swapped on the citywatch rig.The fact that the head works on the old rig is because it's using the same orientation.
Ah it is like that in the Maya files too. That isn't something I realised could change.

 

 

I've replaced the file and re-exported the mesh and animations. The scale of the animation was set to 1 in the def file but the mesh is exported at 0.97. The mesh and animation scale should be the same because the animation scales the model so i've set this also to 0.97.

Thanks. I'm learning as I go :)

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  • 2 weeks later...
from my own experience i would say that we could get most animations in place before the summer. I don't think you need roughly 8 months to convert the existing animations :) If it goes well it could be finished in 1 or 2 months also keeping in mind that we have more characters which need to be adjusted to the new skeleton.

 

What i usually do is going back to older animations to improve them and that's something that will probably go on until the release.

 

Ugh. Sorry to put a damper on things but you're being too optimistic. Since my time working on animations it took over two years to have the current city watch animations even with help. And looking through this thread, you need to realize that real life tends to get in the way!! There were a few posts in this thread regarding that issue.

 

While you guys are fumbling around with a new rig, there are still more animations that the devs and Spring will need. I used the city watch skeleton for a reason: it was the most versatile and the most complete skeleton in oDD's files. Some of the other skeletons were pretty screwed up. Besides, after looking at the current proguard rig, I realize it's missing the joints (joint3 and joint4 for the left leg, and joint5 and joint6 for the right) that control the lower tunics of most of our AI models. When the leg angles upward, the tunics will float above the leg. With those extra joints/bones, we have more control on how the tunic behaves.

 

I'm sorry I haven't been around but life happens (no job=no money for internet) but I think this will hurt the mod more than it'll help.

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I'm not the resident expert of course, but from what I feel I think we're already past the point of no return in this matter.

 

I don't think we're very far from having the new rig done, so maybe we could just join forces and concentrate on ironing out the remaining issues, so that we have a stable base to work with?

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I don't think you need roughly 8 months to convert the existing animations

 

Ironically, it has been eight months now.

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Well, I think the easiest solution for the missing tunic joints is to add some from the hips:

 

In Maya, use the joint tool & click on an upper leg joint, go to the z axis view (side view) and click where you want the joint. post-476-1238952925_thumb.jpg

 

Point of no return? 10 animations on the proguard? Compare that with the 55 animations on the citywatch. & the new rig still has issues? We need to be realistic.

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Well, maybe the proguard is not up to par to the citywatch yet in terms of animation count, but maybe I should word it somewhat differently then.

 

From what I gathered, the proguard skeleton should be simpler and easier to work with than the existing citywatch - if I recall correctly, we didn't easily decide to introduce a new skeleton just for fun, but did so because it would save work on the long run. So it seemed to be a worthwile endeavour - weren't you complaining about the "old" citywatch rig as well?

 

What I'd like to see is that the few team members who are capable of doing animation-related stuff are pulling in the same direction for a decent amount of time - you understand what I'm afraid of?

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Yes definetly - the real issue has been us as individuals needing to devote more time to the mod. Now that I have, I'm really liking the new rig and am working quite quickly with it.

 

Thanks for the tips about adding the tunic joints, we really need them, that was brought up earlier but hasn't been fixed yet.

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Yes definetly - the real issue has been us as individuals needing to devote more time to the mod. Now that I have, I'm really liking the new rig and am working quite quickly with it.

 

Thanks for the tips about adding the tunic joints, we really need them, that was brought up earlier but hasn't been fixed yet.

Need two in the back too.
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We can certainly use help in the following areas:

 

1. Squill could perhaps use help finishing off the animation rig (adding joints for the tunic was basically all that's left) though you'd have to ask him.

 

2. We have at least fifteen characters that will need to be rigged to this new skeleton (obviously not before 1.0, but the more the merrier). Right now only two are.

 

3. The existing animations will have to be adjusted to work with the new skeletons and/or new ones will need to be made.

 

4. We will need new ragdolls for AI of different sizes.

 

 

 

Of course you can make new AI models if you want (though we don't have any pressing need for new meshes at the moment). And I don't expect anyone to make models of the same quality is Oddity's, but they do have to fit the existing style (and relative quality) of the other characters. I personally think it is very difficult to do that from scratch, but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. I just want to make sure that you're prepared for the possibility that we won't use the models if they don't fit that style.

 

I'm going to be a PITA again. If the new rig isn't finished yet, why the hell are we making animations for it? Why should we rig the 15 characters if the rig isn't finished?

 

I wouldn't do anything with the new rig if it isn't fully functional yet. That'll cause more frustration in the long run. I would be more supportive if people didn't jump the gun and start doing things without a final solution. I keep running into posts about this new rig and only the devs/coders are wise enough to hold off until it's finished.

 

Once again I'll remind you I'm using an internet connection that is not mine & it tends to disappear often. I'd hate to upload anything & have it stop when I lose the connection. So I limited to what I can do ATM.

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It's not that bad - it only needs some tunic bones on the front and back, and to be honest, only about 6 new anims have been made, to paste onto it :)

 

squill put a lot of thought into what we would need from a new rig, and I wasted a lot of time getting tangled up with the old rig and trying to fix bugs that shouldn't have been there, it's hardly "jumping the gun".

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I don't think the joints need to be so low, maybe go to half of the leg. If we need anything for the knee bending, which I don't think we need, then add more joints past the first ones. But that'll start making the rig more complicated to work with which was being were avoiding in the first place.

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It's really only the rolling of the legs that needs to be compensated for. There's no real problem with the knee joints.

 

I'm having a hard time visualizing what would happen with full robes, however. If the leg is rolled outwards, would that cause stretching on the robe near the feet?

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ok i was already looking at the tunic so i've tweaked the rig with 4 extra joints for the tunic.

 

post-322-1239311382_thumb.jpg

 

@Springheel

The rolling of the leg will still cause the tunic to open in the middle (idle anim) but you should have better control over the mesh with the extra joints in the front and back.

 

post-322-1239312322_thumb.jpg

 

It's basicly the same like in the old rig which had these extra joints attached to the uplegs.

 

Also transferred the current proguard animations to the last version of the rig.

 

I'm having a hard time visualizing what would happen with full robes, however. If the leg is rolled outwards, would that cause stretching on the robe near the feet?

 

the best example to look at is the builder_priest. His lower legs clip thru the mesh in a walk. Adding some extra joints to the ankle for instance could control the bottom but the stretching would still be there.

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We have conflicting info on model_src & in the mod.

 

tunic_fL, tunic_rL, tunic_fR, tunic_rR, is in the def file while the maya binary's new joints are LeftFrontLowSkirt, LeftBackLowSkirt, LeftFrontUpSkirt, LeftBackUpSkirt, RightFrontUpSkirt, etc.

 

The def file joint names need to match the rig's joint names or we won't get too far :unsure: And there are less joints defined in the def file. Has anyone tried to copy new joints to the animations? I have an idea about how that could work but I'm not so sure it'll work.

 

You might need to have two copies of maya open & then copy the new joints from the rig to the animation MBs. Then you'll have to reparent & rename the joints to match the new rig. Unless I missed something in this thread. I'll see if there's an easier way.

 

EDIT: I tried copying the new joints but maya copied the whole skeleton.

 

EDIT 2: Are you using character mapping?

 

EDIT 3: It looks like you are! The trax editor & character sets are useful things. Good work! Nice tut btw.

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Okay, the good news is, in addition to the upper set of 4 "skirt bones" that start from the upper leg, I have added 4 additional ones that start from the knee. Surely dresses and cloaks will need to bend at the knee.

 

I did a test animation on the proguard with the leg rotating outwards and keyframing the tunic back in place to compensate, and it looks great! So that issue is resolved.

 

Unfortunately, yes ascottk we have conflicting info between model_src and the mod. I'm resolving this with squill right now in email. I think squill may have started on adding the skirt joints a while ago, and so uploaded his after I started working on it in my last post. We just have to start getting used to the lock file feature in SVN.

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At least the animations can be imported to the new rig with the new joints . . . whichever version it'll be. Until the rig is worked out though, rigging the other AI will have to wait. In the meantime the source models of the AI we don't have in the game yet (builder inquisitor, etc. . . source models can be separated according to materials) and the some of the older rigged AIs' def and material files can be prepped.

 

I'd image the devs will need a more expansive character to play around with & it seems like they're picking on the builder guard. I think he'd be the last to be converted until the new anims catch up.

 

BTW, how should the new tunics be rigged for the other AI? Do we give them more weight & let the rotations of the tunic joints handle clipping in the torso? Or do we blend be tunic mesh with the torso so animators don't need to fudge around too much with the tunic joints?

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The only part I'm not sure about right now is the method of copying the old anims to the new rig file - I don't know how this is done.
http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php/..._Character_Sets

 

I was wondering how it's going to be done too. It seems squill has things in hand B) Extremely nice find!

 

Essentially what worked for me is opening the new rig with maya, have another copy of maya running to look at the anim I want for the amount of frames, adjust the # of frames to the rig, then import the animation clip to the new rig (after the character set is active of course).

 

I did have problems with a wildly rotating right foot (with different animations too) after the import but other than that the animation went to the rig with new joints just fine. Just watch out for the animation curves.

 

EDIT: BTW Dom, I forgot to mention that there are animation clips on model_src/anim_clips. I suppose after you're done with an anim you export the animation clip then upload to that directory. Check with quill first though.

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Ah ok, the anim clips folder will be our repository for re-usable animations.

 

Squill and I worked out what we're doing with the source file for the rig (proguardmesh_rev2.mb) The one on SVN is the one we're going with - but it hasn't been used to export the animations yet, so the mod is still out of sync with it.

 

I updated the rig again - I had to add the skirt joints to the character set to make sure their keyframes get exported over when its converted to a clip.

 

The head rotating thing has to be fixed. I think I can fix it but don't know how to test it. What I'll do is go ahead and export all the proguard stuff and spring can do his thing and try it out.

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