Baddcog's Bots

[Springheel]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to start discussing some bot options now. Give me something to chew on for awhile.

 

Thought I'd move this to a new thread to keep the other less cluttered. I pulled some info from the old campaign archives where we discussed bot designs:

 

On the topic of bots, I've been thinking of having at least four different kinds. One would be a complete non-combatant, just a sentry like the smallest T2 bots, perhaps with a spotlight to help with searches.

 

Lol...you filled this role perfectly already.

 

Then there would be a somewhat effective combat bot, a cheaper model like a house guard. They would have no hand-to-hand weapon, and would fire basic crossbow bolts with a slow rate of fire. They can be disabled relatively easily. Possibly something like the spider-bots of T2. Then there is your standard combat bot, that fires crossbow bolts from each arm. If you get too close, it has blades on its arms as Ren suggested. It is not easily disabled...about the same difficulty as T2.

 

Then there would be the stationary ones, like cameras and the big heads.

 

Anyone got any ideas about voices for them? I personally don't want a grating Karras wannabe voice...that got damn annoying. My only thought is that the voice be scratchy and distorted like it's being played on a small viktrola.

 

Or perhaps they shouldn't have voices at all? There's no reason to have them going around spouting theology in our case.

 

I guess the voices helped the player figure out what alert state it's in, but we don't necessarily need that. We could just have the alerts represented by slightly different changes in their ambient hum and animations or something. (IE, at first alert they would just whirr their head from side to side while keeping moving, 2nd alert they would stop and maybe step in a circle or something, third alert they would emit a "yellow alert" alarm and start searching, then on positive ID they would emit a "red alert" alarm and attack.

[Baddcog]

Cool, thanks.

 

I did find that lantern bot quote in one page I dl'ed yesterday. Now it feels less original Oh well, glad I was on the same page as someone else.

 

Didn't find those other quotes so that helps.

 

I think voices could be cool, but yes, no philosophy/theology spouting bots.

 

Maybe I'll start with some head concepts. I think right now that's the biggest thing. Obviously it would be easiest to use the same head on all (like LGS did) and I like the gargoyle idea.

[Baddcog]

OK, I scoured the forums for all bot related topics and Dled as much as I could. Took em home and read thru em.

 

I'll summarize what I think the team wants (my opinion of what I read):

 

oDDity wants cannonballs, almost everyone else isn't too sure about this. Personally I never liked the T2 cannons bots too much, kindof goes with that gun issue. If we have cannons why not guns. I don't think guns fit the thief enviro very well.

I do think a side mod of a victorian/gun enviro would be a cool game, but a different one.

 

Alot of mentions of arrows/crossbows/gas (maybe flametrowers)

Here are a few concepts:

 

Gas bot, I imagine this could be very similar to the size of lantern bot. Even working in tandem would be cool. This one has eyes, the lantern bot has the ears so to speak. Imagine one of these coming around front of crate, one around back, where to go?

The face is just a mock-up for now, see below.

 

Crossbow, good way to fire arrows. This would be the loading system?

problems, bulky, too many polys? What happens to arrows, when they run out, would it be possible toanimate/attach arrows in this fashion. Need animator input I guess.

 

Propulsion concepts.

Wheels? legs? 4 legs on all?

maybe elite bots are biped?

 

Problems with wheels- stairs. can certian AI be made to avoid stairs? I suppose there is a stair anim for legged creatures.

 

 

 

edit:looking for gargoyle pics, good face for bots.

I think an animal type head would be cool, different than T2 human faces.

I also think opening jaws to emit projectiles might be cool, the player would know the bot was 'winding up'

I think mean looking, but not so much evil looking as face on the bot pic above.

I like the one at top of this page

http://gargoylestore.com/

http://www.geocities.com/gargoyleppa/photos/UPFF01.jpg

[ascottk]

Crossbow, good way to fire arrows. This would be the loading system?

problems, bulky, too many polys? What happens to arrows, when they run out, would it be possible toanimate/attach arrows in this fashion. Need animator input I guess.

There's a few options as far as arrows:

• def_attach arrows in their respective slots & they launch similarly as the player bow (although in order to launch an arrow from where the joint is, the joint needs to be named "barrel" & I don't think there can be more than one):
  
  I'd hide the arrows underneath some of the armor so only one arrow is shown so we only need one joint attachment, one arrow is shown at a time, we would have less polys to worry about, & it would solve the "barrel" joint issue.
  
  

  
  

• Have the arrow built in to the mesh as a separate material then hide the arrow when it's launched. We had problems with the rope arrow because we wanted to hide the rope when it's deployed. D3 allows us to turn a material into textures/common/nodraw (effectively turning it invisible) but not the other way around. I'm sure there's a way to turn a nodraw material into a visible material but so far it doesn't work.
  

Problems with wheels- stairs. can certian AI be made to avoid stairs? I suppose there is a stair anim for legged creatures.

D3's walk ik would work for that:

http://www.iddevnet.com/doom3/walkik.php

You would need an ik_pose animation (I use the af_pose animation for that) in order to have ik working. For "knee" joints you need separate joints that point out from the knee in order to get walk ik working properly with crawling creatures:

I had to add those joint sticking from the top of the legs to get ik working properly with the spider.

 

BTW, I'm loving the bots

[Baddcog]

thanks ascottk

ah, forum doing weird stuff. I can't un-bold your name.

 

Anyway. I've only done a little bit of rigging, I know I can rig up the bot, but I don't know if I'll have any success getting things to work properly. Would you mind handling all that?

I deffinately have some concepts for how I'd like the lantern bot to work.

 

edit: oh major Q I guess.

It looks like we can have seperate tex on an AI. This could help reuse stuff alot, I figured you wouldn't be able to skin a mesh like that since materials have to be on seperate objects. Anything special that needs done?

[ascottk]

thanks ascottk

ah, forum doing weird stuff. I can't un-bold your name.

 

Anyway. I've only done a little bit of rigging, I know I can rig up the bot, but I don't know if I'll have any success getting things to work properly. Would you mind handling all that?

I deffinately have some concepts for how I'd like the lantern bot to work.

Sure, you're using max? If so, the best bet is to export it as an obj or an fbx then it's easier to import to maya for rigging & applying materials. For the skeleton, I think the spider's skeleton would work after removing a few legs joints.

[Springheel]

I like the way you're approaching this.

 

A few comments:

 

I'd like to see the tougher bots be larger than the light bot. The gas one could wind up looking too 'cute', and we want to avoid that for the more dangerous bots. They should inspire some definite apprehension in the player.

 

I like your idea of animal motifs. I'm all for that.

 

I don't think there's a problem with a mixed leg/wheel design, though I wouldn't go all wheels.

 

We have said that the bots are very expensive to make (they have to be, or they wouldn't be so rare), so if you can find ways to work in expensive materials into the design (gemstones for eyes, golden 'antennae' spikes, etc) that would be good.

[Baddcog]

I found it! This is deffinately my next bot!!!

 

http://worlddominationtoys.com/toys_li%27lgasser.html

[ascottk]

edit: oh major Q I guess.

It looks like we can have seperate tex on an AI. This could help reuse stuff alot, I figured you wouldn't be able to skin a mesh like that since materials have to be on seperate objects. Anything special that needs done?

I've had little success with max, but the md5 exporters (especially der_ton's exporter) can use max's use of submaterials on a single mesh. You could combine the meshes in max & retain separate materials but in order to use that mesh in maya, they need to be separate meshes.

[Domarius]

And you need a huge bot to lead all the other types of bots, he can say "Builder-Bots! Roll out!"

 

jk

[sparhawk]

That's where I have the problem with. Conceptually it would be cool, but from teh technical point of view, it would be hard to code these, because they would have to act together as a team. Especially if they are supposed to have shortages, which other, specialized bots, would compensate for.

[Baddcog]

Couple more things I noticed in my research:

 

The idea of having gears on sides that can be jammed with arrows. I think that's a really cool idea.

Could we have an arrow stop an animated texture?

That's probably the big thing, seems like alot can be done with materials...

 

Other than that, how should the large bots be disabled? It seems like half team though water arrows dumb, half like em. I think it makes sense, but jamming gears does too. maybe we could have 2 bots water, 2 arrow. Make it just a bit tougher. I think broadhead to side of would make it stealthy like arrows from back.

 

more gas bot concepts.

 

I like the scorpion tail thing for the nozzle. Decided larger bots would be better with dog legs instead of spider. will fit thru doors better.

 

I don't know about wheels. And I really don't care for the combo wheel/leg thing. I know Staempunk is supposed to border on goofy, but it just seems so odd.

I think that wheels on one would be cool, but not a combat bot since they'd be limited by stairs.

I think just a helper bot around the shop, carry tools, bottle, ect would be the only practical use for wheels.

 

----

@ ascottk, I will finish up the tex on lantern bot soon and get him to you. It's all one tex so that'll be easy enough.

There are 2 weird bones issues for him.

1-it needs some bones in back to work the piston.

2-it needs one up top to work the steampipe lid. I was thinking he'd walk around but not steam too much, if he stops to look around he'd deffinately blow off steam not being used. But more on that later.

[sparhawk]

The idea of having gears on sides that can be jammed with arrows. I think that's a really cool idea.

Could we have an arrow stop an animated texture?

That's probably the big thing, seems like alot can be done with materials...

 

That should work. Depends on how it is programmed. I noticed such an effect in my watermill map. When I go to one of the lower wheels, and I jam it, then the whole animation stops, which means that the entire machine will no longer work. I found this pretty cool, because I didn't specifically code it that way, but the way it was programmed, got this as an sideeffect.

[Springheel]

The idea of having gears on sides that can be jammed with arrows. I think that's a really cool idea.

Could we have an arrow stop an animated texture?

 

Not very easily. You'd have to set up some kind of skin-swap system that detects where the arrow hits and then replaces the animated texture with a non-animated texture. I'm not entirely sure that you can dynamically swap skins on animated meshes--I remember Ascottk had trouble with this for the rope arrow.

 

Using broadheads to take out combat bots is not my ideal approach, since broadheads are very cheap. I suppose it could work if the area you have to aim for is small, but I'd rather force the player to use up other resources, like fire arrows, or mines or flashbombs or something. I also don't think there's anything wrong with the 'water arrow to the furnace' approach.

 

I kind of like the idea of having to use lockpicks against them somehow, like you have to open a locked plate on the back and THEN shoot a water arrow in, but that might be too hard to lockpick while following them. Maybe that could work in concert with something else? Maybe you have to flashbomb them, which makes them stop, and then you have to lockpick something to shut them down? I don't know.

 

re: the new designs: I'm not a big fan of the dog-legs, to be honest. They look a little too sophisticated--not awkward enough. And if the creature is big they would seem to be prone to tipping over. I think something shorter and with less joints--like a wind-up robot--might be better.

 

The helper bot on wheels just makes me think of a primitive R2D2.

 

Keep in mind that we really only need three different designs for moving bots, including your light one. These have to be animated, and we can't really afford to spend time animating five or six different steambot designs when we still have lots of commonly-used AI to work on.

[Baddcog]

I did notice a mention of 'steel arrows', which could be good for bots BUT they'd take another weapon slot and while I don't think it would add alot of complication to gamesys I'm not sure.

I'd probably say no to this myself, although I think it is a good idea for that purpose.

 

 

I think what could be done as far as stopping gears/changing tex if we did decide on that is having 2 textures, one moving, that maybe could recieve the stim from arrow. But it never stops animating, instead it toggles a transparent tex to turn opaque (I know that can be done). This new image would be in front of animated and would just block the players view of animation. That would probably be easiest option.

 

What does everyone else think of the legs? I'd like to pin down one style for the 2 remaining combots.

Then the skeletons/animations could probably be used on both, with exception of attacks. Maybe one crossbow one gas? I'd like at least one to have the opening mouth to emit arrow/gas.

 

I'd prefer the gas as above with a tail. And arrow shoot out of mouth to give palyer warning of wind up time. Mouth ratchets down, around loading, fires, mouth snaps shut. mouth ratchets...

 

The tail could be similar, have some animation where it 'springs' to attention.

 

-edit:

On complexity of legs. I didn't want to get too much more simple, they are really the same as the other bot. For a few reasons:

1- realistic walking, with 4 legs they could balance quite easily, get up/down stairs ect...

and with those joints they have the articulation needed to walk properly. (see discussion on DeepOmegas bot)

 

2-they use alot of same parts as lantern bot. I think this is important since the bots are expensive to produce, natuarally the inventors would try to make as few parts as needed.

(I do have a forge madel almost complete- I plan on making molds for these parts)

Thus same gears, leg bones, heads.

 

-edit2:

I was also thinking a 2 legged bot with a tail for balance (a tripod basically) but more able to use staris than a wheeled bot.

Of course instad of tail dragging on ground there could be a small wheel at end of it.

Would be steampunk weird, but not overly odd or unuseful.

It could be the gas bot, afterall art imitates life (or is it the other way around?) and most likely an inventor would have seen a belchewr and thought 'I can make that' thinking it would be better having a controlable bot instead of haphazard beast partroling.

[Springheel]

I think what could be done as far as stopping gears/changing tex if we did decide on that is having 2 textures, one moving, that maybe could recieve the stim from arrow. But it never stops animating, instead it toggles a transparent tex to turn opaque (I know that can be done). This new image would be in front of animated and would just block the players view of animation. That would probably be easiest option.

 

If you can dynamically swap a nodraw texture for an opaque one, then you should be able to swap any other two textures. Maybe the stim system would work for this, although currently I don't think regular arrows have a stim.

 

realistic walking, with 4 legs they could balance quite easily, get up/down stairs ect...

 

You keep mentioning stairs as a concern, but I'm not sure we should really be worried about that. Bots have to have some kind of restrictions, or they would have replaced flesh and blood guards entirely by now. It wouldn't bother me to have large combot bots that can't navigate stairs (where the T2 ones able to go up and down stairs?).

[Dram]

Actually, stopping an animated texture would not be difficult, you can do it by setting it to change on a specific shader parm, just like the moon rays I made for the mansion, which change with lighting conditions (through code of course)

[Baddcog]

whoops, some strange double post thing

[Baddcog]

My final concept? I'm kindof running dry on ideas.

 

This is a rough concept, so of course things like thicker legs are absolute changes.

Anyway, before i start any new bots I'd like to get not only opinions but I would like some help with more concepts. Even just basic pencil scrathes on napkins.

I guess I big problem I'm having, and I noticed this in other bot threads is that everyone has their idea of what they want, but it's different from what everyone else wants

<IMG style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle" alt="" src="

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif" border=0 emoid="">

So what I propse is a brainstorming of everyones ideas again, but to help finalize exactly what we want/need.

-------

I suppose it will be :

2 combat bots:

 

One arrow attack (thru the mouth?)

One gas attack (thru the tail?)

 

with some kind of gargoyle/animal head (hopefully like above)

 

Legs not wheels. Yes the T2 bots did do stairs. Of course they had limits of ladders/small holes, will the Darkmod Ai climb ladders? I don't know, wheel and leg combo just seems odd. If they did have wheels how can we stop them from using stairs.

 

Don't know what happened there:

 

Anyway, I know T2 ai were stopped by walls, but how would we stop a bot from stairs?

I stimmed blockade?

 

Then I need someone up high to just say "this is what we want, shuddup and do it"

[Springheel]

Ok, here's a few things that I think are commonly agreed upon:

 

We only plan to have 3 bots (for the first release--we can always do more later). These include:

 

a non-combattant (your lantern bot).

 

a low-level combat bot (medium sized, somewhat threatening but not too hard to disable)

 

a high-level combat bot (large and powerful)

 

 

I like the heads you've designed, and I like the idea of the crossbows coming from the mouth. Mechanical designs aren't really my thing, but I'll see if I can come up with a few.

 

Here's one possibility. These are the kinds of legs I was talking about--less complex looking, more like they're built out of simple, existing levers. The head would be able to move side to side, sort of like a gun turret.

 

[Springheel]

Here's another rough sketch based on the idea of the scorpion tail. I don't think a nozzle that sprays gas is a good idea, since it wouldn't go that far, but what about a catapult-like tail that fires small gas canisters (like the arrows, basically)? The tail has to get wound up between shots. This might make a good bipedal bot, and it could have two boilers, so you have to put out both of them to shut it down. If you get too close for it to hit you with arcing gas canisters, it could shoot a burst of flame from it's mouth.

 

[Crispy]

Legs not wheels. Yes the T2 bots did do stairs. Of course they had limits of ladders/small holes, will the Darkmod Ai climb ladders? I don't know, wheel and leg combo just seems odd. If they did have wheels how can we stop them from using stairs.

AIs climbing ladders is not planned; at least not for the initial release.

 

I agree that wheels would introduce all sorts of complications. Best to avoid them.

[Ishtvan]

This reminded me of the bots and one way they could move. I forget if this was posted here or somewhere else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlJLqvrlsLs

[SneaksieDave]

Holy shit, that thing is amazing. They're so matter-of-fact about it! I wonder if they needed special licensing or anything. I'm simply floored. This is like space-program level stuff from some rednecks.

 

Edit: oh, back on topic. And it's scary. Pull that off in TDM, the lumbering herky jerky nature, the noises, the look of it, and that'll be one intimidating bot.

[Baddcog]

That's a cool car, I want it, though it looks really slow

Basically that's how the lantern bot will move, but the legs will rotate at the base as bit for the foward to back move.

 

Springheel:

The legs you have drawn there are really very similar to the lantern bots legs, = the cables of course.

I thought the cable would be a simple was to articulat the legs rather than hydrolics.

Yours have same amount of joints and all.

So I'm not really getting why you think the other bots legs look so complicated, all I did was rotate the lantern bot legs 90 degrees and repostion the joints so they go in a z shape.

 

I still think the dog leg option is the best for a four legged bot. It's not that complex, it'll balance, it could move fast/navigate terrain.

 

My point with doing that really was to make it skinnier. The little lantern bot is about 3 feet wide and 2 feet tall, so if I made a version with legs to the side that was 4 feet tall he'd be to wide for doors.

 

I see your point in needing a head to go side/side.

 

The problem I've seen with the biped bot is everyone posted wondering how they would balance.

This is one of those suspended disbelief issues. I took a good look at the combat bot in T2 and there is NO way it would balance, as soon as one leg lifted it would tip.

I don't mind doing a biped but we do need to sort out that issue. Either we don't care, maybe it could swing side/side like the t2 bots for counterbalance or we judt don't even worry about that.

 

The gas thing: launching gas bombs might not be a bad option. I'm not sure about catapult. no feelings either way I guess. I think that would be a cool steampunkish way to do it, kindof weird contraption sort of thing, probably better than grenade launcher.

I'd like to here what others to say.

 

I'm not sure how many members are checking this thread, should we start a new thread/poll kindof thing that says "all team members opinions required"?