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For anybody who wants to test this in game, just install my latest patch to have a look!

Upgraded to include a patch for ffmpeg.

Welcome to the Dark Mod forums MarsManon! Thank you very much for the kind words about SLL, it's always nice to hear We all worked real hard on bringing Grayman's map to life and I'm glad you enjoyed it

I found a trick to sort the missions with "A" and "The" included and will probably update my patch to do so...

I was so enchanted by this FM, I had to sign up to the forums the same day I finished it to come thank the authors Genuinely, truly incredible work! I was so overwhelmed in places that I resorted to just shouting joy at my monitor two, three, maybe four entirely separate times while playing. Exploring, puzzling, finding something new, trying to use it, and finding it does a whole new, separate, wonderful thing! There aren't enough words inside me to describe the feeling. It was breathtaking. I don't have any specific feedback that hasn't come through this thread before Thanks so much for making this, for all the inspiration and ingenuity and effort it took. If I never play another level this good, in any other game, in my life, I'd be fine with that.

It does not - the single click action is performed on key release. If key release occurs before the delay time is over it is instantly performed. There is no perceivable delay when doing a normal frob action, though I guess this would be slightly “slower” than doing it on key down. You can set the frob delay variable to 5000ms and still get an immediate feeling response when just “clicking” the mouse button. I assume this is how long press also works with the darkmod controller config, as there is much a longer delay there to perform an long press action and there is no perceivable delay when simply pressing a button. Just like click to drop body, door switch handling, and other things you have brought up this is just not a description of how that patch works. Not sure if something went haywire with applying the patch?

Unfortunately in playing an actual mission I find I like this even less. Just replayed a bridge too far and the double click to drop a body was quite troublesome. Maybe it’s a “me” problem but when multiple inputs are a required and I am in any kind of hurry or under pressure (like I need to drop a body because a guard is coming) I have a tendency to over input. The result is I drop the the body and immediately grab it again. This just did not feel very responsive to me in the points of the game where it was needed. I mean this now works fine in the other patch. Some of the most popular content creators for the games are ghosters and their tdm videos can get thousands of views. I went from having no ghost testers in the release version of Iris - to some being integral in subsequent patches - to in SLL quite a few testers using this play style. I don’t get it but there is certainly no denying it. They appreciate details like this.

There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?

Here is an alternative way to simplify extinguishing candles and shouldering bodies. Player can double-press / double-click frob button to do a mixed frob + use action. The test build is available in tdm_installer as "test-frob-stgatilov". Attached the source code patch too: FrobUse_By_DoubleClick.patch The original TDM controls are left unchanged. The difference starts only when double-click is registered (which unfortunately can happen accidentally). Also, the double-click action always continues the single-click action. So when you grab a body/candle, the single-click action happens immediately: there is no need to delay it. The maximum time between double-clicks is controlled by cvar in_doubleClickDelay, default is 200 ms. In principle, you can set it to zero to return to the old behavior: then double-clicks won't be registered. Here is how it works internally. There is an utility class which tracks held buttons (which are called "impulses" --- Doom 3 has too few "buttons"). I have extended it to also register double-click. So whenever player clicks frob and this is registered as double-click, then: If there is nothing grabbed, then do ordinary "frob" to grab item (this allows to double-click on already grabbed item). If there is nothing grabbed now, then fall back to normal single-click frob (this happens for ungrabable stuff like doors). If there is something grabbed, then "use" it (that's the main part: it shoulders/extinguished/eats the thing). Unless we have a body shouldered, release currently grabbed item (we want to ungrab extinguished candle). And there is also a special case: If there is something equipped at the moment of double-click, the just "use" it instead of anything else (this allows to unshoulder body by double-click).

That honestly sounds a description of the current patch to me - you never responded to my question as to why you view it as “radical”, why you feel like there is justification for you to redefine the scope of the patch at this point to not address the concerns of these players, and way there is cause to not consider expanding the test base by including the patch in an actual dev build? You mention the code has been this way for a long time - it takes a very shallow glance to see how long players have also been posting on this forum asking how to shoulder a body and getting some frigid responses about reading the wiki or playing the training mission. It has been consistent since at least 2009. The idea that a game that is still in active development can’t strive to improve these things just does not resonate with me at all.

So you didn't test the patch? No it's not a toggle currently. Please do test the patch before commenting here. I think it's considered illogical by some. I would like to try your sugestion though. If both options are available with a switch in the settings, that would be ideal, because it does give an easier shouldering function, while preserving full body control.

Oh god no! With this patch, the frob code already looks like spaghetti. If you make it scriptable, it only means all non-standard configurations will break all th etime.

I am completely on your side and I really would like to have such a cvar too, as I said ;). Then you can include it into your mod and I into my patch and all of us will be happy in the end :)!

Don't you get that I mentioned my alternative over and over again? The original players had an issue because they didn't know they need to use a different key for shouldering a body. If this is done by long frobbing instead, the same as e. g. multilooting or extinguishing a candle in your current patch this problem is solved! I have no issues with the idea, I only would like to have the order consistent: short frob - pick up (as is normal with all moveables in TDM), long frob - special action (like shouldering, extinguishing, multilooting or maybe eating consumables next). The thing I find inconsistent is that you see shouldering not as a special action. Also I hope Daft is kind enough to add a cvar variable with which this can be adjusted, it shouldn't be too difficult to reverse short and long triggers.

I think daft said he would consider a variable to try and cover you. It'd be nice to see you acknowledge that you understand while this is your preference it nullifies one of the primary goals of the patch which is to address specific feedback we see from new players who are giving up on playing the game. That is because what seems consistent to you is actually inconsistent with any other game like this they have played. Apologies, it is quit tiresome to emphasize this aspect of the patch over and over again. Everyone respects your preference and understands your feedback, to the point that full backwards compatibility with the original controls has been in the patch since the very beginning and as mentioned daft already said he would consider an option for you. It's just very hard to tell if you do not care about solving this particular problem (which is fine), or you just don't understand at all what the patch is attempting to achieve (also fine). Either way you are asking over and over again to undo this aspect of the patch and never providing an alternative that addresses the same problem. Agreed - my experience is that it feels completely natural to me. Frob being a contextual action - if an object is highlighted in your view you interact with it, if there isn’t one you drop the body. i haven’t run into issues with not being able to interact with doors or even very small buttons like snatcher was describing. Since all the original inputs also still work you actually have multiple options for dropping or snuffing candles you are holding.

This, just like click again to drop a body, is already included in the patch. If a switch, button or door are highlighted you will interact with them without dropping the body. There are probably more objects this would need to cover which will come up with more testing (readables maybe?) Seems like elements of the patched executable aren’t working with your install for some reason?

It's very easy to change text in the tutorial mission, I did so for my Unofficial Patch and I even added items.

I should remind you that my Unoffcial Patch already includes another way to instantly extinguish candles in holders by making the candle a seperate entity that can be frobed. This might be a way out of this problem...

One issue I really see with saying "just click to shoulder body" is that clicking again does not drop it. Right now the player has to press Enter to shoulder the body, so it is logical to press Enter to unshoulder it. But as soon as we try to simplify it and move shouldering to the same mouse button, it would be natural to expect that player should unshoulder with the same mouse button too. But it does not happen by default. It is indeed possible to unshoulder on click. That's what @Wellingtoncrab said is already done with the patch, although it did not work for me when I tried --- perhaps I messed something up. The real issue is that player might also want to frob doors when body is shouldered, so now opening doors and unshouldering body gets mixed together. It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange. And I think there is no perfect way around it.

I think not. The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle. The old scheme is bad because frob is by default on mouse, and use is by default on keyboard, so doing click + keypress + click feels awful. As for discoverability, only the proper tutorial mission can really solve all the problems. You have something like 4 pending changes right now. Perhaps you commit the other three (which are less radical) to trunk, then I'll make a dev build of it, and then I'll apply your patch and create a test build (also in tdm_installer) with frob changes? Then I can do the same with double-clicking prototype.

You have made this clear. You do not need to say it over and over again. It may be “consistent” in some way but it is not the solution these other immersive sims came up with and it is confusing and frustrating to some players. Do you have an issue with players having an option to play this way? Even the patched version in its current state already includes an option to keep the original behavior for players like you. In the current patch food handling is not changed. The idea that a certain thing is “forced” by the frob action again is the complete opposite of the point that it is a context sensitive control. It should do what makes sense in the context of the game. Food can be eaten but it’s also a physics object - so I don’t see it as inconsistent that the primary is pick it up on frob and consume it in place with long press/double click whatever. I can see the other side to. It’s a good question.

The thinking behind the current design is as follows: Quick-press frob Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it) Pick up candle/lantern and carry it Pick up an item and carry it Long-press frob (for special action) Drag body or body limbs Pinch out candle Toggle lantern off/on If you are dragging a body, you cannot run off with it. It'll automatically get dropped at some point. So, shouldering a body and carrying a candle are almost the same. Dragging a body, pinching out a candle, and toggling a lantern off/on are all special actions specific to each of them. The timing and animation are identical to TDM 2.11, especially since my patch does not touch that code at all. The only difference is that it is less cumbersome to perform the shoulder action with a single key press rather than two key presses. Yes, it is quicker for the player to perform the action, but the game itself is not acting any quicker. The goal of this proposal and patch is to make these actions less cumbersome for the player to perform. Perhaps play the game a bit more to give your brain some time to rewire itself to the new controls. If you're still not satisfied, you can set the cvar to use TDM 2.11 behavior. tdm_frobhold_delay 0

OK I think I've got to the bottom of this. I've created this forum thread (with bug report): https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22221-bug-drowning-ai-in-shallow-water/ I can apply a workaround, although it won't be perfect and the bug itself needs fixing in the engine. There are a few other things that need fixing so will put an update together soonish.

If any mappers have encountered weirdness with kill objectives not working with drowning AI, I think I've found out why. I don't think it would be a particularly difficult one to fix either. I've raised this bug report: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6323 Some context here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21837-fan-mission-the-lieutenant-2-high-expectations-by-frost_salamander-20230424/&do=findComment&comment=487316 I think this is a bug, but just raising here in case some people think otherwise.

I dom't use it, i found it here with the filter set to OpenSource. the TOS and PP isn't excluding for an OpenSource app, if they use ads mean that they also need to pay an server for this online service. OpenSource is not synonymous with free either, perhaps after the beta phase it is no longer free, so perhaps you can take advantage of the fact that it is still free to create a series of textures that can be used or search another one in Futuretools. AI generated textures and assets, by definition, don't have any copyright, so you can use them as you want. https://www.futuretools.io/?pricing-model=free|open-source&tags-n5zn=gaming