Hud Mock-up

[sparhawk]

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't work so well with the arrows. If you select an arrow this just means that this is the current weapon. But when you select it, it doesn't mean that the arrow should be knocked all the time. Because you just would see the bow and only when you actually trigger the arrow, you will take an arrow from your quiver, put it on the bow and then pull the string.

But then then player will only see th ebow as an idle animation which is not exactly helpfull. I don't remember right now how T2 solves this, but I can test it when I'm at home.

[oDDity]

No, you only mount the arrow when you press the fire button. Until then it is in your right hand playing an idle.

When you do press the fire button the arrow is mounted and the bow comes up to the aiming position.

So, the procedure is

- you select an arrow (hit the apropriate hotkey), you draw the bow with your left hand and then draw the arrow from you quiver with your right. Both are then seen at the bottom of the screen to the left and right corners, if you're not takling a shot after about 5 seconds you're hands drop furthur down so you can see them any more.

[Springheel]

What can happen is that you select your weapon/item, a part of it ends up at the bottom corner of the screen playing its idle, if you don't use it after n number of seconds, it drops off the screen completely.

 

This has three problems, as I see it.

 

1. Sometimes the animations would conflict. The bow is held in your left hand. If you select a flashbomb with the bow out, does the flashbomb then appear in your right? Wouldn't it still throw from the left side? What if you want to draw an arrow while the flashbomb animation is still playing? Where does the flashbomb go then?

 

2. The animations would take up more screen space then the HUD object does.

 

3. The animations don't tell you how many of each object you have left. And while I *might* be able to keep track of how many arrows I've fired over the course of an hour of play, I certainly don't want to have to keep track of how much of everything I have when I save the game and come back to it days later.

 

 

The most obvious solution, as I see it, is to make the HUD object fade away after a few seconds rather than add a bunch of new animations. This would be extremely easy to code and solves all the issues above. It could work just the same way the healthbar does. By default it fades away after a few seconds, but you can toggle it on with a keybind if you specifically need to check something.

[Domarius]

What I really liked about T2 interface is, that it fits in with the minimal approach of a medivial setting. This HUD looks much more technical and modern. So I could see it working perfectly in an RPG or in a more modern game.

Well I'm not talking about the graphics; I'm talking about the interface - a row of 10 objects of your choosing, they are the ones you cycle through with "item up/down" keys, and press "fire" to use.

 

The HUD reflects the interface, so I want to throw in my suggestions for the interface.

 

And I'm not saying we should do this, I'm just showing how things can be done differently. (And better.)

 

I feel that the only reason there is a distinction between weapons and items in T2 is just to lower the clutter of cycling through too many things. Since it means two seperate pairs of keys for cycling through things (whereas Deus Ex just has the one pair), I think it could be refined.

 

The other thing that annoys me about the T2 interface is that they've mushed the usage of the "use item" key with the "action" key.

In T2, the same key is used for using your items, as well as using game objects (switches, doors etc.) Then you have another key for firing weapons.

 

But in Deus Ex, you have the fire key that always uses whatever your holding, and the use key always uses game objects.

Makes much more sense. No more throwing flashbombs instead of opening doors.

Edited January 28, 2005 by Domarius

[Darkness_Falls]

I have a HUD idea, but may need time to make a screenshot -- if nobody gets what I'm saying. Hopefully can do it tonight or this weekend. Basically, you press a button while playing (tilde ~, for sake of argument), and this slides up a mini-panel at the bottom of the screen, left side; only one row tall. This panel shows you the weapons you have. Each item would have a small graphic of what it is and its quantity remaining. Pick your weapon, the mini-panel goes away and you're on your way. While the mini-panel is activated, the game is not paused but your mouse turns into a pointer for you to choose your weapon. Once the panel goes away, the mouse once again lets you look around.

 

There would be a second key you can press (F1, for the sake of argument) that would open a mini-panel on the bottom, right side; one row tall; that gives you access to your other types of items; mines, flash bombs, health potions, etc.

 

Keep it simple, minimalistic and efficient (maybe even semi-transparent) and I feel this would be nice to have. I sometimes don't remember what button to push for a moss or vine arrow, for example, so I end up hitting 5, 6, 7, 8, until I find it. And with the other inventory items (mines, scrolls, potions, etc.), I hate that you have to scroll thru them all. Having two hidden mini-HUDs that you can quickly bring up and make go away would be a quick-win, IMO.

Edited January 28, 2005 by Darkness_Falls

[oDDity]

1.  Sometimes the animations would conflict.  The bow is held in your left hand.  If you select a flashbomb with the bow out, does the flashbomb then appear in your right?  Wouldn't it still throw from the left side?  What if you want to draw an arrow while the flashbomb animation is still playing?  Where does the flashbomb go then?

So? You already can't hold the blackjack and bow at the same time, it has to be either/or, so why should you be able to hold the flashbomb and bow at the same time?

Make the flashbomb part of the weapons selection. It IS a weapon after all.

 

2.  The animations would take up more screen space then the HUD object does.

 

In a realistic way, and only for a few seconds after you've selected an item. That's a more than a fair trade.

 

3.  The animations don't tell you how many of each object you have left.  And while I *might* be able to keep track of how many arrows I've fired over the course of an hour of play, I certainly don't want to have to keep track of how much of everything I have when I save the game and come back to it days later.

 

 

Have a simple inventory screen where you can go check if you ever need to.

 

 

The most obvious solution, as I see it, is to make the HUD object fade away after a few seconds rather than add a bunch of new animations.  This would be extremely easy to code and solves all the issues above.  It could work just the same way the healthbar does.  By default it fades away after a few seconds, but you can toggle it on with a keybind if you specifically need to check something.

 

 

Of course, I wouldn't have a health bar AT ALL, but that's another story. THe health bar/health pak powerup system is just an ancient cheat tactic that's been loitering around the gaming world for the last 20 years. It makes players think they've managed to get through a level without getting killed, but if they've used several health packs they're just fooling themselves. I'd much prefer they were honest with themselves and loaded a save when they lose enough health to get killed, in which case it isn't necessary to know howe much you have. It should be your goal at all times not to lose ANY regardless or circumstances, so knowing you've only one percent left or have it all left makes zero difference. It's just another one of those crutches.

[Domarius]

Darkness_Falls suggestion is a bit controversial (like me talking about Deus Ex), but that's the kind of innovation I really hoped to see on this topic I think the original T2 interface is really... dodgy.

 

I too, forget which number key is what weapon in T2, and just cycle around till I get what I want.

 

In fact, Darkness_Falls suggestion is sort of implemented in Giants, and works well there. You hold a key and a pointer appears in the HUD where you can click on what you want. Except Darkness goes one better and hides the HUD when you let go of the button.

[New Horizon]

So, what are we talking about here? The campaign or the toolset? I thought the goal of the toolset was to provide a familiar yet customizable interface and then we would go to town with our own vision with the campaign? Sorry, but this gets rather exhausting.

[sparhawk]

Yes. This was also my understanding, so I don't know why this now crops up again.

[Darkness_Falls]

Well, if it's only the toolset we're discussing and we're not wanting to enhance or change things from T2, then we should just copy T2's interface and not talk about any other changes.

 

A lot of discussions would be avoided if we all just agreed to essentially copy T1/T2 with respect to everything, yet make things customizable.

Edited January 28, 2005 by Darkness_Falls

[Darkness_Falls]

Yes. This was also my understanding, so I don't know why this now crops up again.

Because if we want to enhance the toolset to make the HUD more user-friendly from the get-go, then we need to talk about these things. On the other hand, if our goal is to merely copy T2, which I'm fine with, then let's just shut down all the dreamers and brainstormers (like me) with respect to everything right now.

[Domarius]

Ah well...

[oDDity]

Yes, every topic such as this should simply be subtitled 'let's decide how much we can steal from thief on this subject and get away with it' - just give people what they're used to and not make a single decision about what we actually want to give them. That's fine by me as well, as long as it's out in the open now.

[Springheel]

So? You already can't hold the blackjack and bow at the same time, it has to be either/or, so why should you be able to hold the flashbomb and bow at the same time?

 

Ok, then replace "flashbomb" with "potion", or "compass" or "key" or any other object that isn't a weapon. Unless you want the player to only be able to select one thing at a time, this remains an issue.

 

Of course, I wouldn't have a health bar AT ALL, but that's another story.

 

Yes, that is another story. So what about my suggestion? I think it achieves the minimal look some of you want, while allowing people to keep the classic interface if someone chooses to. And it doesn't require any new animations or HUD design work.

 

Anyone object?

[New Horizon]

Yes, every topic such as this should simply be subtitled 'let's decide how much we can steal from thief on this subject and get away with it'  - just give people what they're used to and not make a single decision about what we actually want to give them. That's fine by me as well, as long as it's out in the open now.

 

Well, I don't think it's as simple as that. We're still deciding to give them...a configurable hud. From there THEY can decide what they want. All these great ideas that have cropped up here are idea for the campaign, then we can really cut loose. I'm all for it. I just hate seeing us get side tracked all the time and forget what the toolset is for. Don't worry, we'll have every opportunity to show off and stick up our noses with the campaign. Patience my friends. Nobody is trying to hold back anyones creativity.

 

On this topic, this is a little something I'm considering for Minimalist project 1.3 and it may work well for us here. I took into consideration that oDDity likes a clean hud and that others like the weapon icons to appear. I also considered that the number of remaining weapons should always be available. I think for our purposes the weapon names could be removed and the weapons and numbers could be slightly transparent...however, I'm not doing this in Minimalist so I didn't bother mocking it up. This is solely focussed on the weapon icons at the moment. I didn't do anything with the health bar or the light gem. One thing in T3's favor is that you can really mess around with the hud. Now, this idea works within the existing format of the Thief 1 and 2 weapon/ item hud...but puts a bit of a twist on it. We do need to provide a "default" setting but it doesn't need to be exactly like the originals as long as it is similar.

 

Some of the ideas here were looking to redefine the existing system but that's something to keep in mind for the campaign...where we will push the envelope further and make our own game. Really though, we don't want to be giving away our campaign designed settings in the Toolset do we?

 

Oh, and enjoy the video. You'll need xvid.

weapons.avi

[SneaksieDave]

Fading? I'm all for it. With a repeat of the keypress (or perhaps a "flash hud" key of some sort), I think that's perfect. Keeps crap off my screen except when I want it there. Boggles the mind (IMO) that the health bar was *ever* left up in the first place. And WHITE, no less. What the HELL were they smoking.

[New Horizon]

Ok, then replace "flashbomb" with "potion", or "compass" or "key" or any other object that isn't a weapon. Unless you want the player to only be able to select one thing at a time, this remains an issue.

 

 

 

Yes, that is another story. So what about my suggestion? I think it achieves the minimal look some of you want, while allowing people to keep the classic interface if someone chooses to. And it doesn't require any new animations or HUD design work.

 

Anyone object?

Yeah Springer. That sounds good. Either fading or sliding out of view, like I demonstrated in my little video. It keeps the number in sight for the last consumable weapon or item you selected.

[Darkness_Falls]

I'll have to look at Spring's idea more later. My HUD proposal (unless it was a repeat of what Spring proposed) would retain the exact functionality of T2 for players that want to play it that way, but also had the added benefit of being able to slide the mini-HUD in, if the player desired as sometimes I get lazy and want to click the weapon/item I want. As far as looks of the HUD while you're moving around and if you hit "2" to select Blackjack or whatever, i think I'd want it to be as much like T2 as possible, personally.

[New Horizon]

I'll have to look at Spring's idea more later.  My HUD proposal (unless it was a repeat of what Spring proposed) would retain the exact functionality of T2 for players that want to play it that way, but also had the added benefit of being able to slide the mini-HUD in, if the player desired as sometimes I get lazy and want to click the weapon/item I want.  As far as looks of the HUD while you're moving around and if you hit "2" to select Blackjack or whatever, i think I'd want it to be as much like T2 as possible, personally.

That sounds quite intriguing. I look forward to seeing a mockup of this. I don't think it is something that would be included with the toolset though, but rather the campaign. This gives us more time to really play test all of the possibilities.

 

One problem I could see with the mini hud is that it changes the play mechanic since you would need to relinquish mouse control to a pointer. The player wouldn't be able to look around or perform other functions, if I understand correctly.

[sparhawk]

The problem is not that we don't want a new HUD. The T1/T2 style HUD works very well and it is easy to code. Since the HUD is not strictly core gameplay it can be tweaked later. And considering the configurability of D3 and we having the source and everything, NH can write a Minimalistic HUD D3 version (if he feels like it) where we can define HUD templates for all tastes with a nice interface. So I don't see such an urgency to discuss the HUD right now as we have far more important things to do first.

[Darkness_Falls]

One problem I could see with the mini hud is that it changes the play mechanic since you would need to relinquish mouse control to a pointer. The player wouldn't be able to look around or perform other functions, if I understand correctly.

You got it. It wouldn't be that big of problem, imo, 'cause:

 

(1) T2 functionalitieswould remain as the primary way to select weapons. If you're in a non-stressful or non-combat situation, however, you have the option of using this mini-HUD instead.

 

(2) You could always just hit the 'tilde (~)' key again ('tilde' for the sake of argument) or quickly select your weapon to go back to mouse-look. Note: If tested in-game and this causes too much confusion, then maybe only allow the mini-HUD and mouse pointer to be used while holding down the tilde key. As soon as you let go of tilde, the mouse look is immediately back.

[Springheel]

Let's leave the totally different HUD ideas for after the upcoming release. For now, the fade effect will satisfy those that want their HUD as minimal as possible.

[Darkness_Falls]

Update: I just played the Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory demo last night and it had a weapon HUD interface pretty much like I was proposing. Although it used the ALT or CTRL key (can't remember which) for bringing up the weapon HUD.

 

(2) You could always just hit the 'tilde (~)' key again ('tilde' for the sake of argument) or quickly select your weapon to go back to mouse-look. Note: If tested in-game and this causes too much confusion, then maybe only allow the mini-HUD and mouse pointer to be used while holding down the tilde key. As soon as you let go of tilde, the mouse look is immediately back.

Although I didn't much care for the execution of the Splinter Cell version, the functionality I was proposing is, more or less, there. Splinter Cell's clunky graphics engine and other stuff going on made it a chore to use the weapon-select HUD. The ideal version for Dark Mod would be smaller, have less intrusivene graphics, be simpler to use and have a smoother scroll-out animation. I still think it could be a nice tool for us to consider for the Dark Mod in the future.

 

Just wanted to provide this update to the thread for future reference.

[Ishtvan]

I didn't like the SC:PT interface because you have to use the mouse to select your weapon and stuff (if that's what you're referring to?) It's very console-esque because you have to pause the game and then use mouse and movement keys to select your item; I'd rather have it done in real time with the standard next item/prev item / hotkey shortcuts. I don't know if that's what you meant tho.

[Springheel]

I don't think we'll be adding anything to the HUD just for the hell of it. If it doesn't somehow improve the ideas we're already working with, what's the point?