Elite Builders

[oDDity]

WHat about this guy? This is a statue of (I suppose) St. Edgar from T3.

This is one of the founding fathers of the Builders. As you can see he's a robed monk wielding dual hammers. I think this would look kick ass for our elite builder. these guys are so well trained in combat with their hammers, they don't even need any armour.

I got the idea from Doc Murchison (the guy we got the haunt idea from)

 

I fancy modeling this. I think it would make for a nice change as well, rather than having all the elites just look like better armoured versions of the regulars.

[sparhawk]

I liked this in Painkiller as well, when you got attacked by the robed monks.

[SneaksieDave]

Hmm, the problem might come up when they are actually in a fighting situation, though. With armor, it's easy to figure "I can barely hurt this guy!" But when he's a robed martial arts/combat (or whatever) expert, he will require the AI and animations galore to show the player that he/she's not even landing hits. And also, that might lead to frustration. "WTF, how are you supposed to hit these guys? Screw this." The AI would have to be really air-tight, making it nearly impossible to land a hit at all times, or people would find ways to exploit it just like they did sword fighting in Thief.

 

That is, unless the plan is just to allow for the same AI and animations, but use beefed up health values and assume they're just "tougher." And in that case, I myself prefer the huge burly hulking mountain-of-a-man guard look, the guys that scare the crap out of you on sight, the guys that make you want to use another hallway altogether... The guys that make you say, "oh fuck, I'm not even going to try that."

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Edit: On re-reading, I noticed "...rather than having all the elites..." so perhaps the intention is just in addition to regular bulked up captain elite types? I'm all for it.

Edited January 27, 2005 by SneaksieDave

[New Horizon]

These guys fight with holy blessed hammers. Booyah. They don't need armor...the builder protects them.

[Springheel]

I was planning on redesigning the elite builders anyway, so I could try going for something more like this. I still think they should be wearing metal...it's not just for protection, it's more like a holy garment. But I won't go with the heavily-armoured look I had before.

 

That isn't at the top of my list right now though, since it won't be in the first release anyway.

 

If you're eager to model this now, oDDity, I don't see why not. We could always have two different models for elite builders, or we could actually use this for a separate group of monastic builders, who are more contemplative and spiritual, but can still kick ass.

[oDDity]

These guys would also be great as ghosts.

This isn't an RPG, Dave - you're almost talking in terms of attack rolls there, the combat in thief has never been realistic. The pagans are naked but they are as hard to kill as armoured guards. These guys could have a magic attack like the priests.

THey're basically a melee guard and a priest combined into a paladin, so they could have armour under the robe.

[New Horizon]

These guys would also be great as ghosts.

This isn't an RPG, Dave - you're almost talking in terms of attack rolls there, the combat in thief has never been realistic. The pagans are naked but they are as hard to kill as armoured guards. These guys could have a magic attack like the priests.

THey're basically a melee guard and a priest combined into a paladin, so they could have armour under the robe.

Nice. That sounds excellent.

[V.D.]

Yup, and you only can see some light glowing eyes like Riddick... sounds cool for me...

[SneaksieDave]

Sure that works, I'm just hoping not to lose the intimidating types, the ones that make you feel small and weak. That type of psychological mind game (coupled with the power to back it up) does a LOT in an atmosphere-rich environment, really making you feel like you're there, and like you're in serious trouble if you screw up. So yes, I'm all for it. But let's not lose the hulking club-bouncer type of Builder enforcer too.

[sparhawk]

IMO it was never the plan of Oddity to drop them in favour of these. Just another type of AI to have some variety.

[kfmccall]

Maybe some ideas can be pulled from this, just a fun builder concept.

[Fingernail]

That certainly is a fun concept!

[_Atti_]

remove shield,the steel from his shoulders,that arabic style hood,color him in dark red,and add a little beard... hm..still not a builder..

 

nice piece of art but definitely not a builder:D

[oDDity]

Yes, this would look great for some other game, but your lack of knowledge of the THief world really shows through when you try to do characters)

[Renzatic]

I like it personally...with a bit of tweaking he could easily be changed into something a bit more hammeritelike. Keep the hood and maybe even add a cape for flair, it adds style, but lose the facemask...he doesn't need one.

[Alexius]

looks great. the only thing I'd comment on removing is the face mask.

[oDDity]

I've been refining my thoughts about these AI.

I've decided they should be called Prelates, Grand Prelates or Architects. They are the highest ranking members of the church, extremely fanatical, even by the fanatical standards of the common builders, they are romoured to be in direct contact with the master builder himself.

They are paladins, they are equally stong with either melee or magic. THey can divine the power of the master builder though their hammers to lauch magic bolts, and they can equally splatter you across the wall if you're fool enough to get within melee range.

We have to emphisise how dangerous these guys are. Even the common builder guards are scared shitless of them, since they can kill them instantly if displeased with anything, and the builder guards know that anyone killed by these guys goes straight to hell. They are held in a mixture of extreme awe, respect and fear by the common builders, and we can reflect this in the dialogue.

Obvuously, the player will hear aout these guys before they see them, so we have to make them very powerful so as not to dissapoint. I recommend that these Prelates can kill with one hit of either their hammers or their magic.

Now, in an FPS, it would be ridiculous to have an enemy who could kill wioht one hit, but this is NOT an FPS, and you are NOT supposed to be fighting them, you are supposed to be straining your bollocks off to avoid them, since they are obviously so very fucking dangerous, and you WILL die instantly.

I think this adds a lot of fear and tenson to the game to be near AI such as this. Obvioulsy we wouldn't want whole levels populated with them (well I would actually)

I've also had the idea that when they are holding their hammers, it completes a magic circut in their bodies which shields them from harm, so you may be able to get a broadhead into them from a distance, but as soon as their hammers come out, you can't strike them again.

Obviously, being paladins, they can self-heal.

[sparhawk]

I guess we should include a fear/defer stim as well so we can automatically make such relations that you described above. Which means that we need appropriate animations for such cases that show that they are afraid or defer to them. But the fear that is shown by them is obviously not exactly the same as it is when a servant detects the thief and is afraid for his live. You think you can do such an animation?

[oDDity]

No, they're not scared in that way, they don't cower in a corner when they see them coming, they're just very VERY careful about fufilling their every whim exactly as given, and they speak to them with total deference.

It's more in the way you'll overhear guards talking about how scared they are of them.

[sparhawk]

I understood what you meant. That's why I said it's not the same fear as a servant detecting the thief. But still IMO this would be shown when they pass them on patrol or such, that they might bow to them, or step back one step or such things as well as in their speech.

[oDDity]

Well, yes that's be ok. The animations wouldn't be hard.

I was thinking of a nice cutsence or movie where you see a Prelate with a gurad who's done something wrong, and squashes him like a bug. Maybe he turns to the other two gape-mouthed builders there and says 'Now, I want YOU to find the thief, and NO MORE EXCUSES - Clear that mess away before you go'

We want to get it into the minds of the player that these guys are not to bemessed with. It's all about bulding tension . Tension was what T2 was all about.

[Springheel]

Sounds like a good idea to me. I was actually thinking about some special 'paladin' like abilities they may have, beyond just shooting flame with their hammers. What about making their hammers glow with a holy light? It becomes the equivelent of a torch, but the Thief can't put it out. It will make it harder to hide from them when they're suspicious. I wouldn't give them any healing ability though...leave that for the priests, so they aren't made irrelevant by these guys.

 

I like the idea of using a Stim-response to make other Ai take a step backwards, or mutter in fear, or something around them. It will really make them stand out. And I see no reason why they can't have a one-shot kill...normal hammerites can take you out in two.

[Ishtvan]

Sounds good. Maybe for the projectile, it would kill you if it hit you dead-on, and have some lesser splash damage otherwise.