Visportals and Sound

[aidakeeley]

s_drawsounds shows player->AI propagation.I don't think that is what is being investigated here.

 

Player->AI sound propagation does work through VPs, and I have it clearly demonstrating so in my little test environment... but I thought the idea here was to make the sounds of the AI properly work for the player...

Edited June 11, 2010 by aidakeeley

[SneaksieDave]

Will certainly jump in and help as soon as I get a moment. I would like these sound issues nailed down once and for all myself as well. Either D3 has a bug where sound can sometimes go the wrong path (e.g. right through a wall), or we have to figure out what is the requirement in maps to prevent it.

[Mr Mike]

s_drawsounds definitely shows where a sound is coming from to the player. I've taken a screen shot if anyone wants one (I don't have anywhere to upload to).

 

Has anyone re-read the previous thread I linked because this seems like we're covering ground I was trying to confirm previously.

 

PM me an email to see the screen shot.

[aidakeeley]

drop.io has been good to me so far, Mr. Mike. And it's been good for a while, but you know how those things go... soon to be ruined (commercialized) I'm sure (cynic!) but good for now.

 

Also, imageshack

 

Also, you can attach pictures right here in the forum... I don't like the way it works so much so I use imageshack for pics, but if you go in to the "Full Editor" here I believe that's where the attach thingy is...

Edited June 11, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Springheel]

Has anyone re-read the previous thread I linked because this seems like we're covering ground I was trying to confirm previously.

 

That's essentially what we're doing. My findings in my testmap have confirmed your findings in that thread (I guess there was less debate over the issue than I remembered), yet the behaviour I'm seeing in my actual map is different.

 

But s_drawsounds is definitely not working in my testmap. That could be because of the distance from the sound to the visportal, however. If it only shows the trace from the last visportal, then it would fail in the testmap because the sound doesn't *reach* the visportal.

 

As for the screenshot, just attach it to the forum.

[aidakeeley]

s_drawsounds is showing both ways... I think... sorry about that...

 

It only "goes" so far as the last VP before the player though, as I guess the other trace kine would be like a dot anyway as it's coming straight at you... so that's where I guess I missed it. The line from AI->player appears in red; where player*->AI is in green.

 

I set up a mini maze with VPs everywhere and the traces were not really following the "maze" of VPs so much.

 

*or rather object player is banging around so that player can see the trace.

[Mr Mike]

Hopefully this works...

[Springheel]

Ok, I saw the purple boxes but not the red lines. Where are the visportals shown?

 

That could be because of the distance from the sound to the visportal, however. If it only shows the trace from the last visportal, then it would fail in the testmap because the sound doesn't *reach* the visportal.

 

Ok, it does look like that was the reason. It's working in my actual map, though it's a bit hard to decipher.

[OrbWeaver]

I had another thought about the footsteps: what point in space are the footstep sounds considered to be propagated from? If it is actually the point of impact with the ground, perhaps some inaccuracy is causing them to pass through the ground and be propagated through the void rather than through visportals?

[Mr Mike]

Ok, I saw the purple boxes but not the red lines. Where are the visportals shown?

 

 

Like I said, it's been a long time since I used this and remembered incorrectly. Just use r_showportals in conjunction with it.

 

I just looked at the same area as my previous screen with portals enabled. What's clear is that, graphical representation at least, the sound passes through the portal via the shortest distance and NOT through the centre of it as previously suggested. Check the image.

 

Also, ID portalled the hell out of Doom 3. A simple L shaped corridor has 4 portals in it. Even fake doors with no architecture behind them have a portal inside, presumably as door prefabs contained a portal by default. They can't have been too concerned about the performance hit this would have.

[Mr Mike]

I had another thought about the footsteps: what point in space are the footstep sounds considered to be propagated from? If it is actually the point of impact with the ground, perhaps some inaccuracy is causing them to pass through the ground and be propagated through the void rather than through visportals?

 

S_drawsounds shows the noise coming from the torso/head area.

[Springheel]

I've now found out what was happening in my map. Although I had tested all the portals for leaks, I did it incorrectly. When I opened a gap to the void, I did it outside the house, so all the rooms were showing no leaks, because the entire house itself was fully sealed to the outside. The individual rooms had leaks to each other, however, which is why the sound was not propagating correctly. As I slowly find and fix the leaks, sound is starting to act as it should.

[Mr Mike]

Another point...

 

When drawing sounds the engine draws an arrow from the source to the nearest edge of the visportal it travels through to reach you. I was beginning to worry that ID had merely coded it this way for performance reasons and to give a sense of what direction the sound was coming from i.e gun fire coming from a separate room north of you would sound as though it was travelling to you via a corridor to the east.

 

However, I created a series of test maps and this does not seem to be the case. Sounds do travel through each and every portal required to reach you, with the appropriate fall-off applied. This is much better for us as it gives a much more developed sense of sound propagation.

[Springheel]

Yes, I suspect sound problems in FMs thus far are because of local leaks and lack of visportals.

[Fidcal]

Well, I'm not seeing any lines at all just the purple boxes. Guess I'd better check all my visportals....

[Fidcal]

OK, I think this part of my current map is not well visportalled yet plus I'm not sure what I'm looking at.

 

In Chalice I think I see. At the top of the spiral stair looking down I see the two patrolling guards coming to the doors below. I hear no footsteps even with my volume turned up. Below I see a red arrow from a guard pointing to the visportal in the doorway. It seems to stop there so I assume they are far enough away that the reduction at the visportal means nothing comes through. As he comes through the arrow disappears and I can hear his footsteps. In some situations I see a triangle indicating an arrow pointing at me but often not even though I can hear the sound.

 

Needs some practice to make useful interpretations of what one is seeing.

 

In the shot below in Heart we are on Floor 2 looking towards the spiral stair. A guard is patrolling on the ground floor below walking towards the spiral stair. The door to the spiral stair on his floor is closed and you can see the red visportal. The door is always open on this Floor 2 and the visportal is green. You can see the arrow from the guard goes directly to the green visportal on Floor 2. It does not go through the red visportal below. I've never yet seen more than a single line from any source. They always show either as a line from beyond and to my nearest open visportal where they stop or as a triangle if the source is within the visportal frame (indicating the point of the arrow.) You never see a line on your own side of a visportal nor through two or more visportals. I assume that is intended. It just shows the source and the final visportal it reaches. And it only shows that if that final visportal is within range of you.

 

[Mr Mike]

 

You never see a line on your own side of a visportal nor through two or more visportals. I assume that is intended. It just shows the source and the final visportal it reaches. And it only shows that if that final visportal is within range of you.

 

 

Yes, this seems to be the behavior of graphical representation though I'm quite confident that sound is properly propagated (see my post above).

 

Heart generally seemed to have quite authentic sound propagation though I did notice anomalies in the room in the first floor adjoining the courtyard with the partially open window. I might give that a closer look later today.

[ungoliant]

I just looked at the same area as my previous screen with portals enabled. What's clear is that, graphical representation at least, the sound passes through the portal via the shortest distance and NOT through the centre of it as previously suggested. Check the image.

 

I'm guessing that this means that mappers will need to be careful of not grossly oversizing their visportals, because if a sound propagates from one of the edges thats like 10 feet inside a wall, the sound will still seem to be coming straight through the wall, instead of the doorway/window/etc. has anyone confirmed this???

 

I'm thinking especially in very tall areas with tall visportals, say 20 feet high, if the sound propagates from the center of the portal, then if you are on one side and a guard is right next to you on the other side of the portal, the sound will have to travel 10 feet straight up to the center of the portal, then 10 feet back down to get to you, even though you are standing 1 foot away from him. Similarly if the visportals are very wide.

[OrbWeaver]

I'm guessing that this means that mappers will need to be careful of not grossly oversizing their visportals, because if a sound propagates from one of the edges thats like 10 feet inside a wall, the sound will still seem to be coming straight through the wall, instead of the doorway/window/etc. has anyone confirmed this???

 

It is impossible for the edge of a visportal to be "inside a wall" once brushes are compiled into polygons by dmap. Even if the visportal brush is buried inside surrounding brushes, the in-game portal will be clipped to the visible portion.

 

I'm thinking especially in very tall areas with tall visportals, say 20 feet high, if the sound propagates from the center of the portal, then if you are on one side and a guard is right next to you on the other side of the portal, the sound will have to travel 10 feet straight up to the center of the portal, then 10 feet back down to get to you, even though you are standing 1 foot away from him. Similarly if the visportals are very wide.

 

Mr Mike is suggesting that the sound does not propagate through the center of the visportal but via the shortest path to the player. If this is the case, this will not be an issue.