A rough idea for a "bank heist" of sorts.

[Professor Paul1290]

This is sort of a very rough and vague unusual mission idea I've been chewing on lately, and I find it interesting enough that I wanted to get opinions on it.

 

Let's say we have a mission in a building that is expected to have some form of well trained security. I guess for now we can call it a bank, but it might not necessarily be a bank.

 

At the start of the mission the player is going to have a lot of intel, far more than they would get during a more conventional mission.

The map will be much more detailed, and show more or less where all the major loot items are as well as which doors are expected to be locked.

The player will also have information on the guards "normal" patrol routes (they may deviate somewhat) as well as how many guards are stationed at there. The player will even have detailed information on what the standard procedures are for security when stuff goes wrong.

Plot-wise, the thief pretty much has copies of the guard captain's important paperwork.

 

The mission itself will have more difficult guard patrols than would be reasonable for a normal mission, though they won't all be active at once from the beginning.

 

Security in the building would have several tiers of alert depending on how likely it appears that a security breach has occured. Much of this would be tied to doors being unlocked, loot items going missing, and obvious things like unconscious/dead guards turning up. Different items locked areas will have different effects on the alert level depending on how important they are.

Plot-wise there would be several intermediate alert levels for practical reasons, mostly so that things like the staff leaving a door unlocked or misplacing less important items doesn't result in the whole of guard quarters being summoned and everything being locked down.

 

An example of what a possible security procedure might look like:

-Level 1: Something minor went missing. All guards currently on patrol are put on alert.

-Level 2: Several minor items went missing and/or important doors were left unlocked. A few guards are added to patrol hallways. Unlocked doors that are normally locked are locked and/or re-locked as they are encountered.

-Level 3: Something important has gone missing and it may or may not be a security breach. Half the total available guards are deployed on patrol. The generator is turned on and lighting normally only left running during "business hours" are turned on to check for abnormalities. Important items are checked to make sure they are still there. (this can trigger another escalation depending on what has been taken)

-Level 4: Security breach is certain. Rooms with important items get guards in them and are re-locked. All available guards are put on patrol/search. The main vault's lock is overridden and switched to a timed lock will be impossible to open until morning. (Not getting required loot from the vault before this occurs would be a failure)

-Level 5: The currently available guards are not sufficient to deal with the situation. Elite guards equipped with lights are brought in from an outside barracks with RIT through all major rooms.

 

Once escalated, alert level will not be reduced for the duration of the mission. On the other hand, it will be impossible to complete the mission objectives without raising the alert level, the alert level will inevitably be raised over the course of the mission and the player will have to work around that.

 

The idea behind this is for the player to use the information they are provided with from the start to figure out a route to navigate the rooms and grab loot items in a way that allows them to get as much loot you can and retrieve the required items before security makes them very difficult or almost impossible to retrieve.

The mission as a whole sort of becomes a puzzle with multiple possible solutions, with the player having to determine when to take certain items and when they can allow the alert level to increase and still be able to complete the mission.

 

 

I guess that's about as much of this as I can think of at the moment. Like I said this is only a very rough idea at the moment and I'm not sure at all about whether or not this would make for fun gameplay in TDM, which is why I'm curious as to what you guys think.

I dunno, if there's enough confidence in this I might take a stab at making it work at some point.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Professor Paul1290

[RJFerret]

I like it. A strategy puzzle of infiltration essentially it sounds like to me.

 

Obviously different game-play, but fun is a balance between challenge and reward, so becomes self leveling in this type of environment. Something like this also might have greater replay value, assuming multiple routes are truly viable.

 

One thing that naturally occurs in many FMs, it gets easier as you progress, since you learn the layout, the safe spots, how to avoid risky spots, etc.

 

This sounds viable to keep players on their toes. However it would be important to still design safe "rest" locations. I believe it'll also be important to have exit paths that are not overwhelmed. In other words, when a player is saturated with challenge, they can leave/complete it. Perhaps loot gained becomes the "score", instead of objectives completed. Presumably obtaining ALL the loot should be effectively impossible (which might frustrate completionists if they aren't expecting it).

 

I also really like that there's not only a physical component to the plan, but a temporal one, when matters, which is often irrelevant in most FMs. There's never really a "I want to leave that until later, it's a bigger priority to X now" choice, and interesting game-play comes from hard choices.

 

My current WIP has a strong temporal aspect, but it's story/setting, not so much gameplay.

 

Presumably there'd be story motivation for the increasing security, aside from bank, a museum obtaining a valuable piece, a traveler securing a valuable for a time, a church (à la St. Lucia) having an event, a political item (election/referendum ballots?), or darker, evidence of blackmail, pagan/undead/builder ritual, etc.

 

I like it (my nature is to plan ahead, so it appeals to me). Most FMs you play for 15 mins to an hour and are done, this sounds like you'd play it, get a feel, then perhaps want to play again to improve.

[Sotha]

Interesting idea.

 

There is one problem. Imagine a plot in you mind. On the x axis there is numer of player mistakes. On the y axis there is mission difficulty.

 

The plot for this mission would be exponential. One little mistake and you get punished, which increases the likelihood of another mistake, and the mission difficulty spirals out of control.

 

This mission would be likely completed with constant save/loading, which is boring. Nobody would want to deal with the consequences, if mistakes mean exponential difficulty increase.

 

It could work if the mistake/difficulty curve wouldn't be too harsh. For every complication the player should the ability counteract: if the AI seals all doors with a portcullis, the player should be able to open/circumvent the doors with clever maneuvering.

 

It is a nice idea, but very difficult to implement so that it would be fun. Remember, difficulty should be challenging and fun, not completely overpowering.

[Xarg]

I dunno Sotha, I'd think the popularity of DayZ and Demon's/Dark Souls indicates that some people do like a really brutal challenge, and not everything has to be fun to be enjoyable. If someone's willing to put in the work to do this, I don't see an issue with making a mission that isn't for everyone, not everything has to be for everyone. Personally, I like the idea of this mission.

[Sir Taffsalot]

I agree with Xarg on this one. We have a pretty good library of typical TDM FMs right now. I think there is room for people to experiment and try something different. There is the possibility of not being able to please everyone when you try something different but I believe that is part of suffering for your art. Sometimes in life you have to take risks. If you play it safe all the time you could end up going nowhere.

 

However this concept does seem a bit too complex for a first attempt at an FM. I wonder if might be worth trying to create something a little less detailed for a first attempt?

[Lux]

Like. I do agree with Xarg and Sir Taffsalot though. I think for a first mission you should make a prequel to the heist where the main character finds information(hints of the bank, maps, etc.) or persons with info leading up to the 2nd mission which is the heist. Then the player could start with those things in the 2nd mission which he found in the first and also you could get a solid first FM out the door that was short and sweet and allow you not be as frustrated with the 2nd missions complexity right off the bat.

 

And for what Xarg mentioned, I like the idea because its outside the box and different. Though it may be difficult to very difficult, the feeling you get when you accomplish it will be great and irreplaceable. Also, quicksave reload isn't always what everyone will do. Ghosters and completionists may have many trial and error run throughs and eventually figure out the puzzle and start fresh with a single playthrough. Trial and error style which is how puzzles are completed anyway.

 

It may turn a lot of players off because of its complexity but it may be many players favorite mission! You never know until you try. It could be a precedent for all future missions or parts of future missions from other mappers. Be a trail blazer, baby!

Edited January 24, 2014 by Lux

[Sir Taffsalot]

I like Lux's idea of doing a small prequel. I would do something where you break into the house of the capatin of the guard to find blueprints of the floors and alarm systems. Notes on patrol routes and stuff. As he's just a guard the house wouldn't need to be more than two floors.

[vvGarrettvv]

Love the idea!

I`m in if you need a beta-tester.

 

The harder the mission, the sweeter the reward

[Obsttorte]

Trying something different is always a good idea. I wouldn't think too much about whether or not it will result in an enjoyable mission, as you can only know after you are ready and get some feedback.

 

Creating difficult missions is an even better idea. We have a whole lot of missions which are not a big challenge for experienced players IMHO, and there are still some gamers out there who play games to be challenged. So as long as the player has a fair chance to win the game, you can make it as difficult as you like it.

 

In addition, the alert level system could be difficulty-dependent, so it would be more forgiving under lower difficulty levels.

[Professor Paul1290]

I like it. A strategy puzzle of infiltration essentially it sounds like to me.

 

Obviously different game-play, but fun is a balance between challenge and reward, so becomes self leveling in this type of environment. Something like this also might have greater replay value, assuming multiple routes are truly viable.

 

One thing that naturally occurs in many FMs, it gets easier as you progress, since you learn the layout, the safe spots, how to avoid risky spots, etc.

 

This sounds viable to keep players on their toes. However it would be important to still design safe "rest" locations. I believe it'll also be important to have exit paths that are not overwhelmed. In other words, when a player is saturated with challenge, they can leave/complete it. Perhaps loot gained becomes the "score", instead of objectives completed. Presumably obtaining ALL the loot should be effectively impossible (which might frustrate completionists if they aren't expecting it).

 

I also really like that there's not only a physical component to the plan, but a temporal one, when matters, which is often irrelevant in most FMs. There's never really a "I want to leave that until later, it's a bigger priority to X now" choice, and interesting game-play comes from hard choices.

 

My current WIP has a strong temporal aspect, but it's story/setting, not so much gameplay.

 

Presumably there'd be story motivation for the increasing security, aside from bank, a museum obtaining a valuable piece, a traveler securing a valuable for a time, a church (à la St. Lucia) having an event, a political item (election/referendum ballots?), or darker, evidence of blackmail, pagan/undead/builder ritual, etc.

 

I like it (my nature is to plan ahead, so it appeals to me). Most FMs you play for 15 mins to an hour and are done, this sounds like you'd play it, get a feel, then perhaps want to play again to improve.

 

I guess "strategy puzzle" does sort of describe this. Admittedly this was partly inspired by my recent plays of AI War: Fleet Command, an RTS game that uses somewhat similar methods for handling certain types of reinforcements.

 

Indeed, the way I picture it right now, it probably should be impractical for most to get all the loot items, as it should be up to the player to decide what to leave behind. Replay value would be a nice perk of this.

 

 

This mission would be likely completed with constant save/loading, which is boring. Nobody would want to deal with the consequences, if mistakes mean exponential difficulty increase.

 

I can see how this can happen. However, you can pretty much do that with just about any FM or just about any game for that matter. If the player is used to playing that way then I'm not sure it's that much of a problem.

 

Also, in some ways I picture this mission as being meant to be re-loaded. Maybe not mid-game perhaps, but ideally the player would re-play the mission and attempt to make a push for more loot or try a different way of getting said loot. In that sense the mission would get re-loaded at least a couple times anyway.

 

 

However this concept does seem a bit too complex for a first attempt at an FM. I wonder if might be worth trying to create something a little less detailed for a first attempt?

 

I definitely don't intend for this to be my first TDM map, I do have an idea for a much more "conventional" map I sort of want to build first.

 

That said, I might try to set up a "lite" version of this in there somewhere as a proof of concept of sorts.

 

In any case, this would probably be a bit far off for now as I have some other projects at the moment I want to knock out before I could get really around to this.

 

 

Creating difficult missions is an even better idea. We have a whole lot of missions which are not a big challenge for experienced players IMHO, and there are still some gamers out there who play games to be challenged. So as long as the player has a fair chance to win the game, you can make it as difficult as you like it.

 

In addition, the alert level system could be difficulty-dependent, so it would be more forgiving under lower difficulty levels.

 

I do have some ideas of what to do about difficulty levels. Balancing changes in the mission for different difficulty levels might be rather difficult as I can already see balancing the mission as is would already be a bit tricky.

 

Instead I'm thinking that the difficulty levels could prioritize different loot items, and leverage the variable difficulty that would already built into the mission.

 

Using the example security procedure I mentioned:

-The Easiest difficulty would be a straight loot goal and one important non-vault item. This means that the player is not required to push the alert level past 3.

-The Medium difficulty could require a multiple important non-vault items. This would make an alert level of 3 inevitable and 4 very likely towards the end, and the player will have to plan around that.

-The Expert difficulty would require multiple important non-vault items and items from the vault itself. This would increase difficulty significantly as the player will have to grab the vault items some time before triggering level 4 alert and will likely have to deal with grabbing locked-down and now more heavily guarded items to complete their objectives afterwards.

 

Of course, the easiest difficulty would list the expert difficulty's objectives as optional so the player can reach for them if they find things are going very well.

 

Even on expert there would be optional objectives as I don't think all the important loot should be required, as it should be impractical to get all the major loot items.

Getting every important loot item in the mission could be considered a "stretch difficulty" for lack of a better phrase. It could be a goal that would theoretically possible but not achievable in testing. I would like to leave that as a goal for that player who is far better at the game than I could ever anticipate.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Professor Paul1290