Global Player Tip System ( split from Frob to Use proposal thread )

[snatcher]

The concern that newcomers and players that play the game occasionally don't know or cannot figure out some features looks like a recurring topic. Since we cannot rely on the training mission alone I propose a "global tip system".

First, we need a setting:

In-game tips: Yes/No

This setting must be easily accessible and therefore it should be included in the main menu or stand out in the settings screen.

Now, when the setting is enabled players will get tips in ANY and ALL missions when triggering a condition for the first time. Examples:

• Player frobs a (shoulderable) ragdoll for the first time: To shoulder a body frob it and press "Use". Drop the body by pressing "Use" again.
• Player frobs a moveable extinguishable light for the first time: You can extinguish a candle by pressing "Use" while holding it. Find fire sources to relight candles.
• Player frobs a moveable switchable lantern for the first time: Press "Use" while holding moveable lights to switch them on and off.
• Player unlocks a door (or object) with a key for the first time: You can lock it again by selecting the appropriate key and pressing "Use".
• Player shoots a water arrow for the first time: Did you know water can clear blood stains and make moss grow stronger?
• Player shoots a rope arrow for the first time: Press "Attack" while hanging on the rope to swing.
• ...

Edited September 30, 2023 by snatcher

[snatcher]

Ok! Let's list here tips for newcomers: The obvious and not obvious treasures and annoyances of The Dark Mod!

Make it fun if you like:

Trying to KO a guard wearing a heavy helmet for the first time: ah! you really thought you could put down everyone with your pitiful stick, didn't you?

Edited September 30, 2023 by snatcher

[wesp5]

Am I correct in guessing that this could be done with scripting with no need to edit any missons or recompile?

[snatcher]

Something could be done with scripting but we might reach a point where a condition cannot be detected right at that exact moment and we would start making concessions and the goal would be impacted. This is something that must be done right to be truly useful, imho.

[Taffingtaffer]

For the menu setting, maybe we could re-purpose the "Show Menu Tooltips" setting. Who would want to not see the tooltips? They aren't intrusive!

As for examples, two come to mind.

• Player frobs some junk item: Don't let everyone think an elephant entered the room. Hold down the 'Creep' key while you move objects to avoid making a ruckus.
• A guard starts searching the player: A guard is searching for you. If you dare blackjack them, get the drop on them from behind. Forget about bashing from a side or upfront, you'll only make things worse.

First one has been a thing for a while if I'm not mistaken and should be communicated; thought we had to rely on the TDM Modpack...
The blackjack effectiviness is known to cause confusion, especially on Thief players, since Garrett seemingly knows just the right spot to bash no matter the alert level of a guard. And I don't believe adding the Deadly Shadows-like animation to TDM was a proper solution; players should be able to read the situation instead of focusing on the blackjack, which sometimes you can't even see because everything is pitch dark.

Of course, the second example should take in mind a previous standard explanation on blackjacking under normal circumstances when you equip the blackjack, for example.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

Good points.

6 hours ago, Taffingtaffer said:

For the menu setting, maybe we could re-purpose the "Show Menu Tooltips" setting. Who would want to not see the tooltips? They aren't intrusive!

It's all about options but yeah, what a weird setting to have.

[snatcher]

And alternative to all this is that players begin missions with a copy of "The Dark Mod" book in their inventory and yes @wesp5, that could be scripted no-problem.

What the contents should look like? Feel free to fantasize with the idea

[Taffingtaffer]

20 hours ago, snatcher said:

And alternative to all this is that players begin missions with a copy of "The Dark Mod" book in their inventory and yes @wesp5, that could be scripted no-problem.

What the contents should look like? Feel free to fantasize with the idea

If we take that route I fantasize about an actual manual in PDF. Arcane art, I know, but that's how we got our answers a couple of decades back, didn't we?

Seriously, though, I don't think an in-game manual in the form of Readable item would feel very good. You can't jump back and forth between sections from an index, and some of the books in Training Mission already span several pages for rather simple things (ie. gamma and contrast values); they kind of suck, frankly.
Maybe we can meet halfway by making it an in-game manual accessible from the main menu. I fear that would require touching its UI though, and I get the feeling there isn't much enthusiasm to mess with it at this point.

[snatcher]

• Player places a mine (or flashmine) for the first time: Mines can be disarmed with the right kit and a steady hand. Keep a safe distance!

I need an assistant myself because I completely forgot this could be done.

[demagogue]

I think there could be some tips about how some mappers make maps that can confuse people.

E.g., Mappers may use different methods to distinguish useable and non-useable doors and windows, and some may not distinguish them at all.

I think there may be other author-focused issues like that if you read through mission threads. I just think it's good to think about issues due to authors beyond just the vanilla game mechanics.

That reminds me there might be a tip like: Guards may relight torches that you douse or close doors that you open if they are responsible for them.

[MirceaKitsune]

As long as it's a setting, absolutely! Don't see anything wrong with it and it might help many new players.

The approach I find best is to only show each tip once: Give the menu two buttons called "clear tips" and "reset tips". The first disables all tips in case you're an experienced player on a fresh config and don't need them, the second resets them so next time you play all tips will show up again in their relevant circumstance.

Edited October 29, 2023 by MirceaKitsune

[wesp5]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:22 PM, snatcher said:

• Player places a mine (or flashmine) for the first time: Mines can be disarmed with the right kit and a steady hand. Keep a safe distance!

I need an assistant myself because I completely forgot this could be done.

I don't believe this is possible! I just tried, but the mine never get's frob-highlighted even when I am directly above it.

[wesp5]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:38 AM, demagogue said:

That reminds me there might be a tip like: Guards may relight torches that you douse or close doors that you open if they are responsible for them.

There is already a main menu tip for the lights, but I will add the info about the doors for my patch. Until a global tip system is added, if it is ever, there could be many more tips added to the current system...

[MirceaKitsune]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:22 PM, snatcher said:

• Player places a mine (or flashmine) for the first time: Mines can be disarmed with the right kit and a steady hand. Keep a safe distance!

I need an assistant myself because I completely forgot this could be done.

Wait is that actually true? I'm with TDM for almost a full decade now, always thought you can just disarm any mines but recently discovered that never works, seems I had it wrong both ways and could use such tips myself

[snatcher]

7 hours ago, wesp5 said:

I don't believe this is possible! I just tried, but the mine never get's frob-highlighted even when I am directly above it.

Are you equipped with the right kit ?

[MirceaKitsune]

1 hour ago, snatcher said:

Are you equipped with the right kit ?

If there's a kit there must be that one FM which implements it: I played nearly every mission and can't remember picking up a "mine disarming kit" item. Makes me think the tip system should be implemented as a script: Apart from keeping the C++ code clean and relevant to the deep stuff, it would allow FM's to add their own custom tips specific to map functionality.

[snatcher]

11 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

If there's a kit there must be that one FM which implements it: I played nearly every mission and can't remember picking up a "mine disarming kit" item.

Sorry for being cryptic, that didn't work very well. It's the lockpicks.

12 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Makes me think the tip system should be implemented as a script: Apart from keeping the C++ code clean and relevant to the deep stuff, it would allow FM's to add their own custom tips specific to map functionality.

Yeah but what if the player has the setting off? Mappers can display tips already although I am not sure how intuitive or easy implementing messages is.

[MirceaKitsune]

Okay now I actually think we need a tip system, since in 10 years I never had any idea you can use lockpicks to disarm mines

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Okay now I actually think we need a tip system, since in 10 years I never had any idea you can use lockpicks to disarm mines

I didn't know this either, I will see if I can add that to the main menu tips somehow...

P.S.: I found a suitable line where the tip is given to trigger mines with an arrow. But I can't get the menu tips to display at all! I thought they would just appear randomly on the left side, but in 2.12 I don't see them. I don't see an option to turn them on either...

Edited October 30, 2023 by wesp5

[Melchior]

This sounds like something that could be scripted into (more) Tutorial missions / maps...

..or perhaps some more 'Advanced' Training maps that show off 'Master' level taffer tricks?

• How to deal with Undead (Holy Water, Mines, Fire-arrows, ect...)
• Sneaky tricks (Trapping guards in locked rooms, mis-uses of heavy crates)
• Spider Hunting 101 (Best sword Stabbin' angles, Use of Arrows on Arachnid weak-points)
• Distracting troublesome Mercs (Noise makers, regular arrows, thrown stuff..throwing even)