Size Standards

[Springheel]

One of the problems I've noticed with a number of our meshes is that they don't always match up in terms of size. Our wine bottle is barely larger than our cup. We have spectacles the size of a book, end tables that are chest-high, etc.

 

My thought was that we should establish one of the AI models as a base, so that modelers can check their size against that model. With Oddity gone, we don't have to accept giant guards, so I propose that we take our builder guard model as average height (about 5'10"). That way we can use him to check the size of doors, props, etc. That would make our tallest model (the professional guard) about 6'2", which seems reasonable.

 

Does that make sense?

[sparhawk]

I think we should create one reference room. This way we have doors, windows and such as well as reference, which will also be important. Since Dram seems to work with the speed of light maybe he could create such a room, or we use the tavern for this.

Alternatively, I suggested right from the beginning, to create a model map, where we put all the models in a gallery. That way we

1) know that the models work

2) we have them in one place where you can just copy them in another map if you need it

and

3) it will also serve as a reference to see if they fit together.

[Springheel]

I think we should create one reference room. This way we have doors, windows and such as well as reference

 

I suppose we could do that too, although I think it's a lot easier for people to load a single model to compare their map dimensions or models with than an entirely separate map.

 

Alternatively, I suggested right from the beginning, to create a model map, where we put all the models in a gallery. That way we

1) know that the models work

 

I've currently tested every model before adding it to the model website. That's how I managed to catch some of the size problems. But it's better (and less time consuming) if modelers/mappers just have a convenient yardstick to measure against. That's why I'm proposing the builder guard.

 

Adding all our models to a single map might be difficult...we're already up to 71 models that would have to be included--147 if we added all the different skins. That would get to be a pretty big map.

[Domarius]

Sounds good spring. Makes sense to base it off a human too, since they will be what everything else is based off. Doorway heights, cups, etc.

[New Horizon]

I know we worked this out before somewhere, but I can't recall where we posted it. The doom 3 grid size, how does it measure in relation to real world feet? If we know that standard, it should be easy to based our world around it and keep things in check. I'm especially concerned about our building materials when they start appearing, although I guess it's unavoidable that someone will have to go through and resize everything at some point to measure up to standards.

[Dram]

Whenever I'm mapping I always compare it to the D3 Hazmat guy. He is slightly larger then the player (at least from first-person) and is perfect for measuring sizes for doorways etc as he is harmless hehe.

 

As for models, I -always- make my model and then import another correct sized model to readjust the size.

 

Milkshape is excellent for this purpose as it's super-simple to use, and supports multiple materials that have the same name etc.

 

If need be I can make a small map for this but I think it's better if I just cut the tavern around a bit and adjust it so we can fit all models etc. That way I can just add them (or anyone else) to the map on a new display spot.

 

We can have the guards there as static meshes (i don't know exactly how to make the default guards not attack you lol).

 

This map would take a couple of minutes to complete imo. I know a few models were stuffed up by the texture reorganization - my purses for one - and BT's vase and flower thingy.

 

Also, there is a bench in the models directory that has no materials, just the textures. I'll update from cvs to make sure it's not only in my build.

[Springheel]

Whenever I'm mapping I always compare it to the D3 Hazmat guy.

 

Probably better to use one of our own models though.

 

I know a few models were stuffed up by the texture reorganization - my purses for one - and BT's vase and flower thingy.

 

I think the majority of the models are now fixed. Everything listed in the model website currently works.

 

Your purses aren't there because you've never uploaded them to CVS.

[Ishtvan]

Probably better to use one of our own models though.

 

Not necessarily if our own AI model is a bit off in scale. With the Hazmat guy we know he has a certain height relative to the first person camera height. We'd have to make sure our own model more or less matches the hazmat guy before switching over the standard.

 

The doom 3 grid size, how does it measure in relation to real world feet?

The mappers can probably correct me on this, but I believe 1 Doom Unit = 1.1 inches = 2.8 cm

[Springheel]

Not necessarily if our own AI model is a bit off in scale. With the Hazmat guy we know he has a certain height relative to the first person camera height. We'd have to make sure our own model more or less matches the hazmat guy before switching over the standard.

 

Is the camera height a fixed thing? I thought it could be moved based on the player model?

[Ishtvan]

The camera height could be changed, but doing so would effect the perceived scale of every map feature and model. It seems to me that it would be easiest to keep camera height consistent with D3 in case someone makes a map for D3 or another mod that they later want to convert to TDM (like Squill's haunted mansion map). The player height can be scaled so that the model head is at the camere height.

 

We could move the camera height around and scale everything arbitrarily based off some arbitrarily scaled AI model, but then our mod would have completely different scale than everything else made for D3.

[Springheel]

Valid points Ish. But I thought there was a problem that the D3 camera was actually in the player's chest instead of the head? Oddity was going to solve that by having our thief be a midget, but I'd rather avoid that if possible.

 

How can we see the exact height of the player camera in comparison to our models? Just opening up a map in game can be kind of misleading.

[New Horizon]

Valid points Ish. But I thought there was a problem that the D3 camera was actually in the player's chest instead of the head? Oddity was going to solve that by having our thief be a midget, but I'd rather avoid that if possible.

 

How can we see the exact height of the player camera in comparison to our models? Just opening up a map in game can be kind of misleading.

 

We wouldn't have to change our camera height by too much. It's stored in the player.def file.

 

It was pretty easy to see the camera height back when spar had dm_lg_player activated, because you could view the lightgem and it is tied to the camera view. We still need to make some adjustments to prevent the gem from clipping into the floor, so that should be re-enabled, but we need to have a Thief model before we make the final adjustments anyway.

 

The default camera height is 68, player height is 74.

[Springheel]

The default camera height is 68, player height is 74.

 

68 doom units, I presume? How does that match up with the editor grid?

 

I lined up three of our character models. In order to get the measurements below (what I considered to be optimal height for those characters) each box had to measure 1.6 inches. How does compare with the player height?

 

[Dram]

Well in game you are almost level in eyeheight with the builder. (btw, did odd decide it was a good idea to have such a huge size difference between people? The builder guard looks midgetty compared to the one far left)

[Dram]

68 doom units, I presume? How does that match up with the editor grid?

 

To find out what grid size you have (and how many DU per side of a block in it) go to the top thingy and select grid - it should say something like grid1 1 or something.

[Ishtvan]

I wouldn't say half a head taller is a huge difference. It actually looks more believable to me than having everyone the same height.

 

Btw: IMO, we should scale the player model with the head at the current D3 camera height, and then change other AI if they look much too tall. If we move the camera position up, again the whole scale will be wrong compared to all D3 maps.

[Springheel]

Those characters are fairly nicely balanced. Keep in mind that the builder doesn't have a helmet. There's less than a 6 inch difference between them.

 

But you're saying that the player's height is currently set at 74? The grid in that image is set to 2, so that would make the player...5'1".

 

It looks like we have three options. 1. We leave things as they are and accept that our player is the size of a ten-year-old, or that the guards are all NBA players. 2. We make the player taller. 3. Or we make the other AI smaller.

 

I'm not happy with the first option, and I don't know if we even have the ability to do the third one. I understand Ish's point about option two, but frankly I'm not very concerned about people being able to play maps from other sources with TDM.

[Domarius]

Hm, I just don't like the idea of "we didn't pay attention to the camera height when modelling so we're going to change it rather than change our artwork".

[Dram]

well the problem now is that the camera height is in his neck anyway, we can move that up without increasing the bounding box (i changed it a while back on the vanilla D3 for a test and the camera was actually outside of the level boundaries lol).

 

I don't know if we can resize oDD's models but that might be a good idea as they won't fit in places where you will easily (headheight wise that is).

[Ishtvan]

Yeah resizing the AI models makes the most sense to me. Our mappers have already been mapping in D3 for a year and have an idea what doorways and counter-tops look right with the current camera height. That would also mean mappers coming in from D3 would have to get used to a different scale. It doesn't make sense to change all of that just because some of the AI are too tall compared to the player. The obvious thing to do would be to change the AI.

 

@Spring: I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. The D3 marine is freakishly tall, like 6'7, so supposing the camera in his neck is a foot shorter puts eye level at 5'7, total height is still well above the average height in the US of 5'8.

[sparhawk]

Valid points Ish. But I thought there was a problem that the D3 camera was actually in the player's chest instead of the head? Oddity was going to solve that by having our thief be a midget, but I'd rather avoid that if possible.

 

It's in the neck, not in the chest.

 

How can we see the exact height of the player camera in comparison to our models? Just opening up a map in game can be kind of misleading.

 

By switching on the lightgem model and set the offsets to null. This means that the model will be placed the players camera position. I have to check the variables, because I don't remember them right now.

[sparhawk]

Well in game you are almost level in eyeheight with the builder. (btw, did odd decide it was a good idea to have such a huge size difference between people? The builder guard looks midgetty compared to the one far left)

 

why not? People are not built all with the same size anyway.

[Dram]

I meant that his chest is much smaller then any other guard - chestplates are usually made to a certain size, not custom for everyone.

 

Well it does'nt matter I guess, cos you most likely won't see builder guards and the other guards all in one map, so don't worry about it.

[Springheel]

The D3 marine is freakishly tall, like 6'7, so supposing the camera in his neck is a foot shorter puts eye level at 5'7, total height is still well above the average height in the US of 5'8.

 

Well, based on the numbers that NH gave me, if the camera level is at 5'7", that makes our guards almost seven feet tall the way they are now.

 

Do we have the necessary files to shrink their height?

[BlackThief]

it *could* work, once I've got a maya version that is compatible. I'd have to import the md5 and shrink the model and the bones, not sure if this will work though.

 

spar have you checked out if you have 4.5?