Can't Wait To Get Stoned

[Springheel]

Actually, a kneeling animation (to examine moss, mines, or dead comrades) is on our list of 'would be nice' animations already. Whether we'll actually get to it or not I don't know. But AI will certainly not be revivable (for multiple reasons described elsewhere).

[Taffer36]

I guess some people can suspend their disbelief to greater degree than others. If little things like those bother you, then you certainly won't be happy with TDM--or any other computer game that attempts to simulate human behaviour.

 

There are some fun flight sims out there though.

 

Oh c'mon. Don't tell me that you don't notice those things at all. Oh wait, you definitely do, considering that you stated all of them yourself as being unrealistic. You may like to pretend that you don't notice them, but you clearly do. Admit that if these things were improved in Thief, it would help immerse you more. Why not just have all of the guards be boxes? It would take a hell of a lot less time to make. Oh, that's right, you're not willing to suspend your disbelief that much. How is my example right here any different than what you're talking about? Both are about saving development time. Both are unrealistic and unimmersive. I never said that those examples in Thief you brought up break the game, and it is understandable that those details are left unfinished, but we're talking in principle here. In principle, the more of these details that can be fixed, the better. Realistically speaking, these type of details will be addressed much later on, if they are even addressed at all. The fact that its hard to do or isn't very important doesn't change the fact that it is an unimmersive feature that "would be nice" to fix if you were given all the time in the world.

 

In response to New Horizon: Yeah I figured that what I was asking for would be very difficult to implement. Mostly it was just me blabbering about what I would want in my ideal stealth game. I'm just hoping that such AI behavior will be possible in the future of gaming.

 

And I forgot to say last time, nice update. To me one of the most important parts of a game is the AI, and it's great to see the Dark Mod's AI coming along.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Taffer36

[Crispy]

The residents didn't seem too concerned about exploding cannonballs in T2.

Haha, good point.

 

Taffer36 - Commercial companies with millions of dollars in funding don't achieve that level of realism, even when "realism" is one of the bullet-points they put on the box. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

In the end, realism is overrated. Gameplay matters more.

 

Here's a quote that sums it up quite well; he's talking about RTS games rather than stealth games, but the principles still apply:

 

Gameplay vs. Realism or History

 

We are in the entertainment business, not simulation or education. Our priority is to create fun and engaging gameplay. Realism and historical information are resources or props we use to add interest, story, and character to the problems we are posing for the player. That is not to say that realism and historic fact have no importance, they are just not the highest priority.

-- From http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010815/shelley_03.htm (registration required, or see http://www.bugmenot.com)

 

If it bothers you that much, just wait until TDM is released. Then you'll be able to spend the next 50 years making it as realistic as you like.

[Springheel]

Oh c'mon. Don't tell me that you don't notice those things at all. Oh wait, you definitely do, considering that you stated all of them yourself as being unrealistic. You may like to pretend that you don't notice them, but you clearly do.

 

I didn't say I didn't notice them. What I said was:

It's surprising how many things players just accept once they're in the game environment...

and,

No one thinks twice about [it]...

That's not the same as saying people don't notice. But most players accept that they will have to 'fill in the blanks' as NH put it.

 

Why not just have all of the guards be boxes? It would take a hell of a lot less time to make. Oh, that's right, you're not willing to suspend your disbelief that much. How is my example right here any different than what you're talking about?

(emphasis mine)

 

You answered your own question. Escaping from black boxes requires a whole lot of suspension of disbelief. Seeing weapons attached to an AI's back without a visible belt strap doesn't. If those two things are actually equal in your books, then we probably see reality too differently to have a meaningful conversation.

[Taffer36]

I have to apologize for earlier, it looks like I misunderstood the meaning of "no one looks at twice". I thought that meant no one notices...

 

But as for your next statement...

 

You answered your own question. Escaping from black boxes requires a whole lot of suspension of disbelief. Seeing weapons attached to an AI's back without a visible belt strap doesn't. If those two things are actually equal in your books, then we probably see reality too differently to have a meaningful conversation.

 

You're missing the whole point here. You're saying that escaping from black boxes is "bad", because you have to suspend your disbelief a lot. So, logically, the less you have to fill in the gaps and suspend your disbelief, the better. Hence, if a guard were to actually open a door and push it closed versus just magically moving it with their mind, it would be slightly better. Correct?

 

I understand that you probably aren't going to be able to fix these details, as it takes too much time to fix them all. But you do agree that if they were gotten rid of, it would be a good thing (not by much, but even a little helps), right?

 

In your original statement actually, you were trying to use that as a point. That players accept those things. Yes, we accept them, but only because we are forced to. That doesn't mean that when we see it we say "that's retarted" or whatever. Meaning that, sure, we accept whatever you shove down our throats, and it probably isn't going to kill the game, but it's certainly not a good thing, and it certainly is going to detract (ever so slightly) from the experience.

 

And Crispy, I think you misunderstood me. I've already heard the whole "lolz that takes forever" argument by practically everyone here in pretty much every single thread. And I know, we are forced in video games to accept some things, even though it would be better if we did not have to. The reason for that is that every little detail takes time. I thought Springheel was saying that players don't notice those small problems, to which I was saying that while we accept them, we certainly do notice them. However, it looks like I misunderstood his statement, and he really wasn't saying anything about players not noticing these problems, just that they have to accept them... which is exactly the point I was making... so yeah, it was all caused by that misunderstanding.

[Springheel]

I understand that you probably aren't going to be able to fix these details, as it takes too much time to fix them all. But you do agree that if they were gotten rid of, it would be a good thing (not by much, but even a little helps), right?

 

You mean games would be more immersive if they could simualte reality in every possible way? Obviously.

 

But it's equally obvious that such a thing isn't possible right now.

 

Therefore, since players are going to have to suspend their disbelief, it comes down to judgement calls about where they should have to *spend* that disbelief.

[ZylonBane]

I figure if Garrett doesn't use his hands to open doors, why should anyone else?

 

http://www.hlcomic.com/index.php?date=2005-05-10

Edited December 30, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Komag]

I remember seeing something on TV about "America's Army" or whatever game it is that is the actual game they use for some of the marines training or something like that.

 

But in the interview with one of the officers, he said that there are some differences in the public version of the game versus the army training version, things like the mine timers and other little details that were just too boring when done the accurate realisitic way. He was like "no one playing a game wants to wait a whole 20 seconds for the mine to blow, we shortened the public version to just 4 seconds and it flows better".

 

Yeah, there is a balance to keep between what we'll accept and what's worth it to try to fix. Quite a few games in the past year or two have "body immersion" now, where pretty much none did 5 years ago. I like the improvement, but it wasn't worth it back then because it would just hog too much resources or programming time or something.

[bob_arctor]

I don't think it's worth it that much now.

 

As for the things in TII: I never noticed them. Now you say it I realise that doors are handled unrealistically. But I was too busy being in the game to notice, and things like level design, gameplay flow, sound etc are far more important in immersing you in the game.

[kohan69]

"it would be nice if the type of object thrown was based on the material type the AI is stand on. So for example, if they're standing on grass or rock they throw stones. If they're on tile or wood they throw bottles, etc."

 

Agreed. But I prefer for them to actually pick up surrounding objects to throw. Yet a better idea would be for them to (I'm serious) build a pyramid/use chairs/surrounding objects if it's possible to reach your elevation. Or even break/shake/rattle object you're on.

or WAIT! If there are more than one NPC looking at you while you're on safe elevation, one of them runs to get an archer or a bow to shoot you with! (Like Crispy suggested)

I am aware of programming difficulties, these are only ideas. But a guard disappearing and reappearing with a bow is more realistic than wine bottles out of thin air.

 

 

 

"give the THief a small pebble to toss himself, to distract or attract AIs"

 

Or coin. (Hitman Blood Money, was it?)

 

 

"if the Citywatch sees me its nothing big as long as I can avoid their grasp, they have no idea what it is Im up to. But if Im a private guard and I see a professional thief lurking about the grounds, no matter whether I can catch him or not, Im going to sound the general alarm and send a heavy guard contingent to the areas"

 

Yet the implementation of this has to be gameplay balanced, and realistic. So if front gate see's thief, top floor should know in about 15-20 minutes, and patrol would stay the same, but their senses and acceleration of alert levels increase.

 

 

"No one thinks twice about the fact that doors just automatically close behind guards without them having to turn around and pull them shut"

Actually, doors are my number one distraction of unrealism in Thief1, I was really aware of it. Not the lack of animation of opening and closing it with the hands, but exploiting them by repeatedly closing them and getting the guards stuck in the other side. I hope this is somehow fixed in TDM, afterall a guard should be stronger than a Thief, right?

 

 

We're intending to include an "emergency alert" state that AI go into when there is obvious evidence of an intruder. Mappers can set all kinds of special case behaviour for AI in this state--they can change patrols, run to block exits, set off alarms, etc.

 

Awesome!! How about blocking player in? Holding/Locking the door, or putting furniture to block it (respawn nearest movable physics object on other side of door?)

And when NPC comes back with help, unblock the door.

 

 

see a re-arrangement of the guards, some extra guards brought in, higher alert, one or two keeping running round in a panic, but just like real people they eventually over time start to relax the alert but keep the extra sentries and patrols etc.

And after running they become tired and less aware!

 

The guard smashes the vase and the thief cannot get it seems fair enough.

Yes, but this feature has to be CAREFULLY balanced: Not smashing mission-critical vases and what if that vase was going to make the mission-critical loot amount? It's a non-progression then!

 

 

Taffer36 brought up some great points.

"Does the thief just throw himself upon the mercy of the guard and his pointy sword because he has been spotted?"

Not a bad idea! If you haven't killed a guard, you could have an option to "give up"

Guards take all your gold/loot and you awake in jail. I really liked this in Thief 3, but found getting out of jail way too easy.

"Maybe the guard should first assess if the situation is dangerous or not. If the thief is out in the open they should give chase. Maybe if they are in a group the other guards should assess whether they should aid them in giving chase, or if they should aid in helping the downed guard"

Great point! I noticed very elementary behavior of this in Dark Messiah

 

 

 

Please note I am aware of the programming difficulties, I am only discussing concepts and will be very grateful for whatever creators of TDM release, even if non-of-the-above are included.

 

A note about the gaming industry:

Unfortunately it is no longer ruled by entrepreneurs. Most games are re-hashed crap of whatever mediocre-Joe kids would buy. This is fueled by the domination of the console industry.

There is hope for change with cheap SDK fir Wii, and Microsoft's SDk for 360 arcade, but with PC gaming I get most of my share from great mods like these

[Crispy]

Agreed. But I prefer for them to actually pick up surrounding objects to throw. Yet a better idea would be for them to (I'm serious) build a pyramid/use chairs/surrounding objects if it's possible to reach your elevation.

Neither of these are feasible. Especially not building a pile of stuff to reach you.

 

or WAIT! If there are more than one NPC looking at you while you're on safe elevation, one of them runs to get an archer or a bow to shoot you with! (Like Crispy suggested)

They will already call for help from archers within hearing distance.

 

Actually, doors are my number one distraction of unrealism in Thief1, I was really aware of it. Not the lack of animation of opening and closing it with the hands, but exploiting them by repeatedly closing them and getting the guards stuck in the other side.

That's not a realism problem, that's an exploit.

 

It's too early to say whether or not that will be a problem. We do spend a lot of time thinking about exploits, so rest assured we do try to avoid this kind of stuff.

[ZylonBane]

Speaking of throwing things... how does the D3 engine handle collisions between AIs? Would it be possible for Gareth to shove a guard off a ledge by running into him at full speed?

[Crispy]

AIs will jostle each other a bit if they get in each other's way, but not to the extent of falling off a ledge.

 

I don't believe the player can push AIs around at all, and I don't think it's a good idea either. That would just be begging for exploits.

[kohan69]

Neither of these are feasible. Especially not building a pile of stuff to reach you.

They will already call for help from archers within hearing distance.

 

Glad to hear that. Or they might run away and reappear with a bow?

 

and about archers - will they have a dagger or sword as well? In case you get close range with them

 

AIs will jostle each other a bit if they get in each other's way, but not to the extent of falling off a ledge.

 

I don't believe the player can push AIs around at all, and I don't think it's a good idea either. That would just be begging for exploits.

 

Kicking was fun in Dark Messiah

 

What about throwing object at NPC ? will that move/knock them over/drop the dead/unconscious? (depending on type of object I presume)

 

 

I was thinking about the idea of 2 use buttons. One for pull/take, the other for push/put back.

If player takes an important item with pull/take than sees a guard coming they could put it back on it's location.

 

Another instance, the player could push a guard (not liek Dark Messiah, but a less than half a meter or so, witihn arm's lenth) off a ledge or pull them down off a ledge [player is under a cliff on a branch, gaurd walks to end of cliff, player pulls, guard drop to the abyss)

[New Horizon]

Don't like to shoot anyone down kohan69, but anything beyond the classic 'core' Thief features likely won't make it into the toolset. We just don't have the time to be experimenting with new systems and trying to balance them within the Thief style experience we already know. We will attempt to improve 'existing' systems where we can, but introducing all new systems at this stage would be development suicide. We need to be realistic.

[kohan69]

I understand New Horizon, hopefully mission-makers will implement their own creative features as well.

 

PS: Still curious about what archers will do in short-range

Edited January 9, 2007 by kohan69

[ZylonBane]

I don't believe the player can push AIs around at all, and I don't think it's a good idea either. That would just be begging for exploits.

Oh please. It would only be exploitable if it was implemented in an utterly incompetent fashion. AIs move around constantly... this would just be another way of moving them. And it would only work if they were unaware, and if the player ran into them at full speed.

[New Horizon]

Oh please. It would only be exploitable if it was implemented in an utterly incompetent fashion. AIs move around constantly... this would just be another way of moving them. And it would only work if they were unaware, and if the player ran into them at full speed.

 

Another 'feature' not on the priority list.

[Ishtvan]

What about throwing object at NPC ? will that move/knock them over/drop the dead/unconscious? (depending on type of object I presume)

Yes, if you drop/throw an object at them and it gathers enough speed, it will hurt them.

 

I was thinking about the idea of 2 use buttons. One for pull/take, the other for push/put back.

If player takes an important item with pull/take than sees a guard coming they could put it back on it's location.

 

You'll be able to do that with the basic inventory and object carrying system, if you want. It would require the FM athour to make the object droppable though after you've picked it up. Some pieces of loot will just disappear into your loot totals and not be visible in the inventory as a droppable object.

 

Another instance, the player could push a guard (not liek Dark Messiah, but a less than half a meter or so, witihn arm's lenth) off a ledge or pull them down off a ledge [player is under a cliff on a branch, gaurd walks to end of cliff, player pulls, guard drop to the abyss)

No.