Removing D3 Assets

[Komag]

can't we just axe (no pun intended) all the Doom 3 stuff? I would like to see it all gone so only dark mod stuff is there at all.

[SneaksieDave]

can't we just axe (no pun intended) all the Doom 3 stuff? I would like to see it all gone so only dark mod stuff is there at all.

This was brought up a few times in the past internally. I'd be very much against eliminating Doom3 assets.

 

The gain is: TDM stuff is marginally easier to navigate to.

The loss is: All of the Doom3 stuff.

 

Not even close to an equal trade, IMO. Filtered? Perhaps. Eliminated, no way.

[Komag]

I guess I just don't understand the loss. Why is the Doom3 stuff useful? To see how things were done?

[New Horizon]

I'm wondering what is going to happen when the engine is open sourced, all of the doom 3 stuff will definitely have to be replaced/removed at that point. This seems to be something that folks are forgetting, if we choose not to be stand alone by version 1.0, then it's going to fall upon the community to fix all the gaping holes left by the removal of the doom 3 materials. Maps will be broken, it won't be a pretty scene. We should seriously be considering a gradual 'replacement' of doom 3 assets with our own. The doom 3 lights and particles could all be slightly modified to pass as our own...it doesn't have to be a complete flush.

[Komag]

Hmm, so maybe if they're still useful right now, we can plan to get rid of/replace all of it by next year or so.

 

Is it easy to delete certain things? Maybe we could whittle it down a little right now.

[Springheel]

what is going to happen when the engine is open sourced, all of the doom 3 stuff will definitely have to be replaced/removed at that point.

 

It's not just simple textures or particle effects that we'd have to replace....we'd have to replace most of the sounds we're currently using, as well as most of our monster AI--zombies, ghouls, fire elementals and spider queens are all D3 based. All the D3 heads would be out, the D3 lights, the decals, etc, etc. We're talking about a lot of stuff.

 

I don't see how it's worth it, just so people can run the mod without spending $5 for Doom 3.

[OrbWeaver]

Why will it have to?

 

When Doom 3 is open-sourced, the game assets will still be protected and only available to people who have purchased the game. As the intention is for TDM to be playable on the open-source Doom 3 engine without needing to purchase the game (i.e. as a complete standalone OSS product) it will be necessary to ensure that there are no dependencies on Doom 3 assets in the Dark Mod content.

[Springheel]

As the intention is for TDM to be playable on the open-source Doom 3 engine without needing to purchase the game

 

Well, that's my point. Why is that the intention?

[sparhawk]

That's not really our intention. The intention is that people have source level access to a Thief inspired gameplay, where they can create their own maps with. This we are going to provide. I don't think it is feasable to replace each and every asset from Id just to make it completely free. If somebody is not willing to spend the 5 bucks, that Doom 3 will cost by then, then really screw him. We have enough on the plate as it is, we don't need to make it any more complicated. If people want to have a truly free TDM, then they should step in and make it so. We can't put everything on our shoulders. At least I certainly don't intend to spend the rest of my live working on TDM. When it works, that's more then enough for me and I consider it a success. And what happens afterwards, I can not realy have an influence. I hope that poeple will pick it up, as they work with T1/2 now and it's ok if by then, some people will want to make it completely free. But if this is not going to happen, then I'm just as happy with it as well.

If people are happy with a 10 year old game, they should be more then happy with a brand new game AND the sourcecode.

[Komag]

I see that it's more complicated than I realized. So maybe we can just ditch all the stuff that obviously doesn't belong in the Dark Mod world?

[sparhawk]

How shall we do that? First of all, that's a lot of work as well, and secondly somebody would have to create a blank installation of Doom 3, and then start to add all the stuff that is usable or neccessary. Needless to say, that this is a tedious and long process. If we are not doing this, then it's pointless, because anybody who downloads the mod, will have all the Doom 3 stuff again.

I mean, it's feasable, and in the long run probably desirable to have, but I wonder who is going for the trouble. We have put all our own stuff into a darkmod folder, so that also in DR you know what belongs to us, and can easily be identified. Some stuff from Doom is definitely usable. I browsed through the props and there were some which were indefnite enough to be able to eb used. Of course the SciFi stuff is mostly not, but not everything is obviously SciFi.

[Springheel]

In most cases our assets are nicely separated from D3 stuff (with the notable exception of the weapons folder, but perhaps we can change that). So I don't see it as a big deal, personally. The D3 stuff is there to be used when it's useful (and there are a lot of cool hell models and textures that could be used) and it's generally out of the way when it's not.

[bob_arctor]

That's good, I am using some D3 stuff, decals for example, in my maps.

[OrbWeaver]

Well, that's my point. Why is that the intention?

 

What would be the logic in requiring people to purchase a commercial game when the engine and 90% of the content is already open-source, just so as to avoid having to replace a handful of assets which are "borrowed" from the commercial content? I'm not saying that it should be a priority, but it really doesn't seem all that onerous to avoid using hell textures in favour of our own bricks, for instance.

 

Ultimately I guess it is up to mappers anyway, since they are the ones who chose which assets are used. If mappers decide to only use original assets, then their maps will automatically be playable on the open-source version of the game -- if not, then they won't.

[Springheel]

What would be the logic in requiring people to purchase a commercial game when the engine and 90% of the content is already open-source, just so as to avoid having to replace a handful of assets

 

That's one way to frame the question. Personally, I'd put it this way: What's the logic in spending a great deal of time replacing quality assets that are *free* and available, just so that several years from now people who don't feel the mod is worth spending $5 can play it anyway?

 

 

it really doesn't seem all that onerous to avoid using hell textures in favour of our own bricks

 

As I said above, there are far more assets than just general textures in use. We'd have to replace a large number of sounds, decals, textures and particles that are already being used. Not to mention more than a few valuable static meshes, and several animated heads and characters. Do we have a character modeler and animator who can replace the undead AI we're using, or who can make and animate new heads?

 

This would be no small undertaking--it would take months to do, during which very little other assets would be produced. If we DID have a character modeler, I'd far rather him do a useful townsfolk character than replacing zombies or heads which already work perfectly well.

 

Frankly, if someone isn't willing to put down $5 for D3 in a few years in order to play the mod, I don't feel any great sympathy that some of the maps might not work for them.

[sparhawk]

Doom 3 is available on Amazon as a used item already for 7 Euro (excluding shipping). I kjnow there are people obsessed with the "open" part in Open Source, but if they feel the need to make it truly open, they can do so. Nobody stops them.

[Ishtvan]

I also think there are more valuable uses of our time than sorting thru all the D3 assets used and reproducing them with open assets. I think people (team members included) would be happier if the mod came out in 2008 and they had to pay $5 than if it didn't come out until some future mystery-date when D3 becomes open-sourced and we replace all the privately owned assets.