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Because people don't understand that "freedom" is not a scalar quantity, and talking about "more free" or "less free" is just meaningless nonsense. A license itself is not "free", but it can try to protect freedoms for specific groups of people (users, developers, company owners, etc), some of which might directly conflict with the freedoms of other specific groups of people.

TDM should contain 2 storages, one that is gpl (the engine) and one with another or more than one license (content), maybe that's already the case? Via the installer you should be able to only install the gpl content? I don't know if that's possible. Everything pure code is gpl, or not? I mean everything outside of media files (images, video's, sound files, etc.). (edit: maybe also models?)

Maybe they are referring to the GPL licensed parts of the engine. Maybe they are referring to the CC-BY-NC-SA license for the media/gamedata. As I understand it, the game engine is libre (GPL+BSD) so no change would be required there. I'm trying to see if there is a way of releasing a "TDM-libre"-version (not changing regular TDM) as I describe in my question (2). Or if the TDM Installer can qualify as libre software (1).

First some people come saying the license of TDM is too free and blocks using TDM in commercial projects. Then other people come and say the license is not free enough (seriously, I wonder why). Anyway, the license will not change.

Is there non-libre media/gamedata that every mission will absolutely require? Even a mission created completely from scratch and only using its own stand-alone models, textures, music, and sound? E.g. is the Lantern image on the HUD libre? Yes, I understand that it may not be doable to replace (or re-license) all current gratis but non-libre media/gamedata used by current missions, but that may not be necessary. Hence my question (2) about a "TDM-libre" version consisting of only the game engine, all non-libre media/gamedata removed, but include a basic mission using (stand-alone) media/gamedata that is libre. This will honor the will of contributors not wanting their work in commercial projects, and still make a limited version of TDM qualify as libre software for the benefits I describe. Does anyone know why? A browser like Chromium or Firefox qualifies as libre but can be used to view and download non-libre content. This is what I'm going for in question (1). If there are libre TDM missions available, then the TDM installer would be similar to Steam in that regard.

TDM has tons of textures from "free" texture resources that do not allow redistribution and cannot be incorporated into a commercial project. Someone would need to create a huge replacement pack of textures that do not break the look of existing missions and do not infringe on the copyrighted textures. Also, many artists who contributed to this project do not want 3rd party entities to use their work in commercial projects. They intended the models, textures, sounds, animations to be exclusively used for Darkmod content. You would either have to replace ALL assets or contact every contributor and ask them to re-license their assets. Many contributors are no longer active with the project and haven't visited the forums in years so it would be no easy feat. I cannot speak to Debian policy but I think that they treat installers that add non-free content the same as non-free content itself. One could argue that Steam is such an installer but I guess Debian would counter that there are a few fully Libre games on Steam. I think Debian, Ubuntu, or Linux Mint need to consider a repo that allows for games (etc) that include non-libre content but intentionally offer this content for free to the community with no stipulations other than "don't try to sell it as a product".

This post differentiates between "gratis" ("at no monetary cost") and "libre" ("with little or no restriction") per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre * A libre version of TDM could: ** Qualify TDM for an article on the LibreGameWiki *** TDM is currently listed as rejected https://libregamewiki.org/Libregamewiki:Rejected_games_list because "Media is non-commercial (under CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0). The engine is free though (modified Doom 3) (2013-10-19)" ** Qualify for software repositories like Debian *** TDM is currently listed as unsuitable https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Unsuitable#The_Dark_Mod because 1) "The gamedata is very large (2.3 GB)", and 2) "The license of the gamedata (otherwise it must go into non-free with the engine into contrib)" and links to https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src/trunk/LICENSE.txt Questions: 1) tdm_installer.linux64 is 4.2 MB (unzipped), which is far from the 2.3 GB which is said to be too large. Yes, the user can use it to download data that is non-libre, but so can any web browser too. If the installer itself is completely libre, does anyone know the reason why it cannot be accepted into the Debian repository? 2) If adding the installer to the repository is not a viable solution, would it be possible to package the engine with a small and beginner friendly mission built only from libre media/gamedata into a "TDM-libre" release, and add user friendly functionality to download the 2.3 GB media/gamedata using "TDM-libre" (similar to mission downloading)? 3) Would such a "TDM-libre" release be acceptable for the Debian repository? 4) Would such a "TDM-libre" release be acceptable for LibreGameWiki? 5) Would the work be worth it? * Pros: Exposure in channels covering libre software (e.g. the LibreGameWiki). Distribution in channels allowing only libre software (e.g. the Debian repository). * Cons: The work required for the modifictions and release of "TDM-libre". Possible maintenance of "TDM-libre". I'm thinking that the wider reach may attract more volunteers to work on TDM, which may eventually make up for this work and hopefully be net positive. 6) Are there any TDM missions that are libre already today? If not, would anyone be willing to work on one to fulfill this? I'll contribute in any way I can. 7) I found the following related topics on the forum: * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/16226-graphical-installers-for-tdm/ (installing only the updater) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/16640-problems-i-had-with-tdm-installation-on-linux-w-solutions/ (problems with installation on Linux) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/17743-building-tdm-on-debian-8-steamos-tdm-203/ (Building TDM on Debian 8 / SteamOS) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/18592-debian-packaging/ (Dark Radiant) ... but if there are other related previous discussions, I'd appreciate any links to them. Any thoughts or comments?

The gamepad implementation allows for a great degree of flexibility to personalize settings, aside from a few minor issues that I mentioned here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22337-gamepad-bindings/ I would say that playing TDM with a gamepad works very well, especially considering that it was implemented as experimental and hasn't been changed since then. If I could, I'd go back to 2021-you and congratulate you on buying that gamepad. I notice that your DarkmodPadbinds.cfg looks very different from mine...

It seems like more and more "thief" and "thief players" is becoming a short hand to dismiss community members earnest desire to improve the game - which happens to be a barely legally distinct "thief style" game which was made by thief fans for thief fans and is "designed to simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief". Who is the predominant player base of the game supposed to be beyond fans of the thief games? Is there some better avenue to find feedback for the game beyond this forum? FOSS and linux forums? I have seen maybe half a dozen posts from that segment. I am a thief fan, I play thief fms, my association with those games is what drives me to play and make things for this game. Are we supposed to pretend the original games are not a huge reason why most of us are here at all? TL;DR version:

Thanks! 1) Doing LONG_PRESS PAD_A (what I, for lack of knowledge, call "jump-mantle" or "_jumpmantle") differs from doing PRESS PAD_A ("_jump"). "_jumpmantle" differs from "_mantle", so they must be mapped to different button-calls. "_jumpmantle" differs from "_jump", so they must also be mapped to different button-calls. This appears to be the case, but it is not evident (or changeable) in DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. "_jumpmantle" seems to be hard coded to always connect to the same button as "_jump" but with a long press. It is as if bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" is not actually just binding PRESS PAD_A to "_jump", but rather interpreted as "link PAD_A (regardless of button press time) to behave exactly like keyboard SPACE for short and long presses". I would have expected the default DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to explicitly read: bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_A "_jumpmantle" bindPadButton PRESS PAD_B "_crouch" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_B "_mantle" ... but neither LONG_PRESS PAD_A or "_jumpmantle" is listed in the file. If there are actions "_jump" and "_mantle", I suppose there must also be an action "_jumpmantle" since it is possible for the player to do all those movements: * "_mantle" does the movements "crouch on the high surface, then stand up" * "_jumpmantle" idoes the movements "jump slightly forward, then land standing on the high surface" * "_jump" idoes the movements "jump up, then land exactly where you started" If the actions "_jump" and "_moveup" are not synonymous, then perhaps the action "_moveup" is what i call "_jumpmantle"? 2) Thanks for the link! It was useful in more than one way. I'll link to that page from https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Bindings_and_User_Settings#Gamepad_Default_Bindings if I can get an account on the wiki, which proved more difficult than i thought (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22327-how-can-i-create-an-account-on-the-tdm-wiki/). However, it does not answer my question how to find out the name ("<button>") used for a button on my gamepad. Basically, I would need to press the button on my gamepad and some program could tell me "That button is called 'PAD_A'". In my case, I have a gamepad "Logitech F310" (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_F310_Gamepad.jpg) which has a "Logitech button" (see image) that I want to use. I was hoping to find out the "button name" for that button and then edit DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to map it to a function. 3) ... but if that button has an "unusual name" that TDM does not recognize, then it may perhaps not work. E.g. if that button is called "PAD_LOGITECH" and TDM cannot recognize that name, then I cannot map anything to it via DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. Using QJoyPad I can map any keyboard key to it instead, as a workaround, but I cannot map MODIFIER to it (since MODIFIER cannot be set to a keyboard key). If current implementation is still called "experimental", then I must say it works very well; @cabalistic: kudos for that! I may not have continued playing TDM had it not worked with a gamepad.

It is possible that this is a setting that needs to be activated to work: https://mantisbt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23221

I am going to sort-of reveal that this is loosely like the nature of my upcoming mission. I noted it here when JackFarmer asked about things that are coming along in this post: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/profile/37993-jackfarmer/&status=3943&type=status It too is a builder church. The player is requested by a hopefully famous character in another mission to handle some business that is affecting the congregation. I am looking to invoke some info and history laid down in other missions as a hook story.

I created the page: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Lightgem In the source I placed the following text: <!-- Page text made by forum user Fiver: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22327-how-can-i-create-an-account-on-the-tdm-wiki/&do=findComment&comment=491145 --> Personally I think the page isn't really necessary because the info is already present under HUD.

In the first post of the other topic Geep proposed: Then Stgatilov's answer: But I think applying subtitles in different languages shouldn't be too hard I would think, but I don't know how the current translation system works. The engine should apply the correct subtitles based on the applied language setting, this doesn't need a whole new language system I think. Not sure who's going to write those subtitles though. I can only do Dutch and English and nobody needs Dutch I think. I suggest further discussion of this to take place in topic https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21741-subtitles-possibilities-beyond-211/

Yeah it would be cool to see some more detailed statistics and it’s a shame they aren’t really captured. Since we are talking about fan mission platforms, where players also make the content for the game, I feel like the best thing we’ve got is you can look at the number of content releases for the games. Keep in mind the graph counts campaigns as single missions - so for example NHAT and TBP both count as 1 mission. A good year for TDM has has approaching maybe 50% - mostly we’re 25-30%. https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152494 You could also look at the number of ratings thief missions get on https://www.thiefguild.com/ vs TDM ones, but that is pretty iffy in that you could chalk that up to more awareness of the site in the thief community than TDM Out of curiosity is there a reason a thief player can’t be a new player? I kind of think a player is a player and new players would be ones who are playing the dark mod who weren't? Is there disagreement the base of players most likely to pick up the game are fans of the thief games? They are certainly the most fruitful place to find feedback on the game beyond the sphere of this forum that I have seen. When we were trying to finish up SLL there was a lot of discussion on the forums about how long it had been since there was a release for the game. I am thankful that the stats show at least some stability over the years in terms of releases for TDM, but the trend for all of the games is decline. Not doing anything is a valid response if that’s what the devs want to do - it is not possible to provide evidence that any effort will slow that inertia. As a player and content maker I would just prefer trying to find feedback where it is offered from players who were willing to try the game but ultimately could not engage with it and see if there is anything that can be done within reason to ease them into the game. The game has a lot to offer imo. All those players are potential contributors - contributions in turn attract players - it’d be nice to see the cycle go on as long as it can.

Creating a new thread for this as it was being discussed in an old beta-testing thread starting here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21822-beta-testing-high-expectations/&do=findComment&comment=490751 I suppose the main questions are: when should this spawnarg be used, if at all? why was it introduced in the first place? Can we get it documented properly on the Wiki so misuse isn't propagated? @stgatilov @Dragofer

Not this time though, the campaign is getting some PC press coverage, some major outlets like Rock Paper Shotgun included: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/the-black-parade-is-a-thief-mod-from-a-team-including-a-dev-at-arkane-and-an-original-thief-designer The TDM / cgtextures.com situation made me think though; maybe, instead of worrying what future license might include, there could be a steady effort to replace photo-sourced textures with hand-made / proc-gen ones? That list is huge, but the peace of mind in the end is priceless.

Right, I forgot that's also a reason why TDM has every single texture from cgtextures listed in license.txt. But, according to current EULA, that might not be enough:

@Frost_SalamanderIf it is helpful, I have express permission from Marcel of cgtextures/textures.com that packaging his assets in a .pk4 is acceptable and at the time he was fine with packaging them in TDM projects: Also you mentioned not being able to use your images for just textures - do I take it this means you can use them as textures and within materials in the context of a mod - you just can’t package and release them as only textures correct? Lastly idtech 4 is an engine old enough it’s package files (.pk4s) can be opened with any archive software (would be difficult to mod otherwise). I will include your license information in my documentation if I ever get to release, but is there any special consideration I should give to packaging assets derived from your images in older game engines which lack modern security? The main thing I hope is to just ensure you include his license and that you do not distribute the textures themselves outside of the context of the fm. There is a bit of a slippery slope in that terms on the site have changed a lot over the years. The current licensing model finally seems to state that the photo ref textures are ok to use in "Scenes" for example, but for many years it stated it was only acceptable to use them specially in models. There are many many assets in core which are from this site, which were licensed under these much older terms: https://web.archive.org/web/20100818122748/http://cgtextures.com/content.php?action=license Ultimately if something is licensed, the terms can change. So buyer beware.

@Frost_Salamander Another interpretation is that a mission (FM) is a "game". For example, Resurrection of Evil for Doom 3 is a game and can be run with the "+set fs_game d3xp" option. TDM is based on Doom 3 but has since deviated from Doom 3 options, but I think the same definition can hold. Mission authors can tweak and modify their mission to create unique gameplay experiences and mechanics, thus making their own game. TDM is the game engine that the game (FM) is run on. So, here it looks like you are free to use them in your own game. The "Open Source" license for images refers to Creative Commons licenses, I imagine, rather than TDM code being open source. In the mission readme.txt file, it sounds like those images need to be listed under a different license than a Creative Commons license. Also, those textures could be in their own directory with a LICENSE.txt file at its root directory, explaining that it is not a Creative Commons license. That said, I'm not a lawyer, and it's good to reach out to the Textures.com folks about this. I just thought I'd share my interpretation in case it helps with communication with them. I hope you get some good answers!

Nice. FWIW, I saw Black Parade crediting textures.com in their credits.avi. Not sure whether they've read the license, but Thief doesn't even use zip packages for content, just for storage. The whole stuff gets extracted during installation into a dedicated folder and it's fully accessible.

It would probably be the best to ask someone from textures.com on that. I couldn't, in all good conscience, call pk4 a package, in the same sense it's used in context of popular game engines, so I ended up not using those audio tracks. Also: That can be a can of worms of all sorts. Does it mean the mission can't be hosted on TDM's servers, or textures and materials can't be used in other TDM FMs? That license is rather specific to 3d models, not video game mods / levels. Maybe that's the most common use case they deal with. Yes, there is. The GPL license is mandatory for game code. You can share your assets under any license you want, copyright included. If you want your assets to make their way to the core mod though, you'll need to share them under CC0 license or similar.

OK but that sounds a bit like a special case where that requirement was explicitly made known up front? There is nothing in that textures.com FAQ that specifies a requirement like that. There is no way I would have assumed that myself. I think unless someone pipes up and says it's a hard no for whatever reason, I will assume it's OK. I suppose the other thing is a license for the FM itself. Is it an option to include a different one than that used for TDM?

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but what is the conclusion here? I'm particularly asking about textures.com, because in my latest FM (WIP) I've used tons of textures from there. When I first looked at it, I had concluded that it was OK to use them, but now I'm second guessing that because of this (also mentioned above): Please note that it is not allowed to release our images under Open Source licenses (even when the materials are modified). If you are working on an game that is released under an Open Source license, you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license. However, this here make me think it might be OK? From https://www.textures.com/support/faq-license#3d-model CAN I USE THE MATERIALS ON A 3D MODEL OR SCENE OR VIDEO GAME LEVEL WHICH I WILL OFFER OR SELL ON A DIGITAL MARKETPLACE? Regular textures may be bundled with 3D models, scenes or video game levels under the following conditions: you have customized the materials for the 3D model, scene or game level, all materials are actually used on the 3D model, in the scene or game level you are selling the model and materials in one package. In other words: do not use bundling as a loophole to sell a texture or material pack. Please add the following text in the documentation accompanying the model: "One or more textures bundled with this project have been created with images from Textures.com. These images may not be redistributed by default. Please visit www.textures.com for more information." IMPORTANT: the exception to this is any content in the Special Content categories: 3D Scans, 3D Scans Atlas, 3D Objects, 3D Foliage, Substance, PBR Materials, Decals, HDR Spheres, HDR Skies, Graphic Designs and 3D Ornaments. The materials in these categories may NOT be bundled with 3D models or scenes. This even applies when you modify the materials: modification does not mean you are allowed to bundle these types of materials. Again I'm specifically talking about using these are part of a fan mission, not the core game. To satisfy the conditions above, I will: customisation: all textures have been converted to different formats (.dds and .tga) or resized I won't include any textures in the .pk4 that aren't included in the mission the FM will be bundled into a single .pk4 package (and I'm obviously not selling it). I'm only using the 'regular textures', not PBR or 3D materials. I will include the text 'One ore more textures...' in the FM readme.

Looking at the code, the originals were "pm_mantle_pull 750" and "pm_mantle_pullFast 450". The new "pm_mantle_pull" value is "400". A "pm_mantle_pullFast" value of "450" would be slower than regular pull, not faster. With both being set to "400", they are at least similar. Other than that, it's subjective and the feedback from playtesters was positive. Also, referenced internally here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22256-movementcontrols-settings-in-main-menu/&do=findComment&comment=489158