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I'd love to be proved wrong Gleemonex. Thing is, I think that SS is a larger endeavour than TDM. At least with TDM as long as a couple of demo missions are made success will still be achieved. SS has to be a conversion of gametype and gameplay mechanics AND a campaign. I hope there is FM potential in it too.

Oh no, trust me...we know only too well the challenges of coming up with a good story, specially a story everyone likes. Anyway, the project is sorta half and half. On one end we're making the toolset and a few standalone missions to go along with it, but on the other end we're already starting to bake up ideas for our campaign. In the end it's worked out pretty well, we have alot of freedom to design our stuff so we're actually getting some things done faster than we would if we stuck to a campaign from the beginning.

Yeah, I don't think that would work very well. It would most likely be better if we used one of the later missions.

I have a problem with this...our Thief character is supposed to be inferior to trained warriors. He is not a combat veteran by any means. As it doesn't seem to be crucial to the rest of the plot, it might be better if he was away for some other reason. Maybe he was caught and exiled by the old prince of the city, and now that the city has been taken over he sees an opportunity to return. Or perhaps he has been working in another city for a time. I like the first couple missions. I also like the idea that our Thief used to be a high-ranking member of the guild, but there is no one now who remembers him. I also like the idea that the city has been taken over, providing lots of opportunity for political intrigue. I'm not so sure that the Builders would be conquering cities though...they aren't an army. Would a political coup work? They certainly might have the power to overthrow the government. Or perhaps some other force has taken the city, but they have turned power over to the Church. My biggest problem is the ending. I wasn't thrilled with the idea of our thief having a wife and daughter, and the ghostly girl thing makes me think too much of the Cradle in T3. Having the climax be bringing his daughter back to life is not my favourite. It also kind of leaves the whole cauldron thing hanging. Who is 'the baron'? Why was he brought back? He seems to just vanish from the plot. And why does bringing his daughter back to life make him worthy of becoming head of the thieves' guild? That conversation with the new 'baron' didn't make sense to me. Another thing--it still seems like just about every mission is the Thief being 'duped' by someone, or doing someone else's work for them. I got so sick of that in T3...Garrett always did everyone elses dirty work, and never seemed to do things to further his OWN agenda. Still, no story is going to please everyone. I definitely think there is potential here. We can see what the others think.

lol, I never posted anything about em cuz I had already spent tons of time raving about my ideas on IRC. I'll toss out my original idea for em and see what everyone thinks...I've tweaked it a tiny bit due to some good issues Springheel brought up when we last talked about em. The Order (as they shall henceforth be known) should only SEEM to have a purpose, they're never fully explained during the course of the game. On the occasions when you do see em during the earlier missions they're either standing off to the edge waiting for you to leave or are just making an exit themselves and you just catch their leaving. Anything they do, any clues they happen to leave behind, should be vague and mysterious...just giving you enough insite to make you THINK you might know what's going on only to have it change or be contradicted later on. They're our G-Man...they enforce the idea of mystery and leave alot open for interpretation, they're there to make you even more curious about the world you're playing in. Originally I had them set up as sort of a behind the scenes superpower but Spring had a few issues with that...and after thinking it over for awhile I agree with him. They do have the occasional dabblings in innerfaction affairs, and they have the power and strength to push just about anything in their favor with a bit of time and subterfuge, but they usually stay to themselves for the most part. They will on occasion call upon someone from outside to do a favor for them, it could be anyone...from a lowly kitchen maid to a powerful baron. Most that recieve this call know it's in their best interest to oblige them and do what they want...those that don't disappear mysteriously never to be heard from again. They always work in the shadows and have connections from the black market to the richest nobleman. No one knows exactly who they are or what they're doing, they just know them by reputation. If we do have a mission where you invade one of their outposts (and I think we should), it shouldn't be too grandly decorated...they usually stick to the slums as base their operations, only equipping their surroundings with their odd machinery and magical artifacts they need. Any books you find here will give you some idea of how they work, but it won't tell you why they're doing it or what their goals are beyond some very vague hints. Writings and conversation should also vary, from lucid explainations in one book, to odd rambings and drawings in another. Sometimes their plans will even contradict each other...like their own faction has layers upon layers upon layers of conspiracies existing right under their noses. Generally they should be scary as hell, confusing, and very threatening. Even the lowliest of their order exudes an aura of almost unimaginable knowledge and power.

NH has given me the summary. The wording here is a little unclear. Does this mean the story should only be about the main character's life, paying the rent, joining a guild, removing an obstacle to business, a competitor, ecetra, without any suggestion of a larger plot involving other forces, or that the focus should simply be on the more mundane aspects of Thievery while a grander plot involving outer forces can be revealed as the BIG picture comes into focus? It would seem rather strange for a Thief game to eschew these things completely, since they are a well loved ingredient in all the Thief games and most great fan missions.

I know what I posted is a lot to read - but all it is is a belt, and that could be turned off, so you'd have nothing on screen at all. After configuring the belt in the inventory screen of course. I handle just as many items and weapons in T2 as I do in Deus Ex (probably MORE in T2 in some missions, since there is no limit), and I much preffer Deus Ex's way of doing it. I'm just showing how things can be done differently. The interface is simpler in Deus Ex. It's more complex to program though.

Awesome... One thing I really missed from the original games was the rich diversity of good voices. The 20-something young male guard voices in Thievery, and Thief fan missions, just dont' cut it when compared to voices like the original Hammerites, that sounded something like ageing shakespearian actors. You can't immitate that with a few people, you really need access to people who actually have the voice types you want. And proper english accents too I miss those.

Thanks for dropping in. Essentially what we're doing is making a total conversion of the Doom 3 editor. When we are finished it will provide FM authors with the tools they need to construct missions. It's likely going to be another year before we see the toolset released, but hang in there.

No, the disguse option is right out of the question. It completely kills gameplay in this type of stealth game. Except perhaps for specific missions or plots where it might be required, but it shouldn't be a default part of the game where you can use take anyone's clothes and walk around unhindered wherever you want. It was totally stupid in Hitman as well.

Hiring you as a writer IMO makes mostly sense if you can come up with a good story AND defend it. The problem is that we tried to come up with one ourselve and this didn't work out really well as many members tried to push their story forward and others didn't agree with it. But our members are not writers anyway, so I was not to happy with the currenty story proposals on a whole, while individual ideas were pretty good. So there is no clear direction yet. One reason is also, because we initially started this mod as a toolset for FM authors to create their own missions. Doing a campaign was more thrown in later because Eidos/ION (inofficially) announced that they are working on the editor and we thought that we should change direction a bit. Personally I think that writing the story is just a creative process as the modelling, sound and all the other components. Therefore I don't want to push a particular story idea beyond a few general restrictions.

We might use movies, but we aren't the only one's who are going to use this mod (hopefully). I think in-game cutscenes (with a grain/sepia-filter overlayed) could be a great way for people to get briefings in their missions, without them having any Premiere/After-effects skills (which most of them don't have).

Yeah. I can imagine that the two raving fans of your playstyle will be pretty dissappointed. You know I'm quite selfish. I want as many people, as possible can, enjoy the game in order to get many FM missions back for freem without sacrificing gameplay to the XBox crowd (like T3 did). As there is no body feedback in a game, the player has to get some info on his state. Not everybody is directly connected into his machine with a brain interface. Who said it's impossible? You can play it without it, no problem. What you don't seem to get is, what OPTIONAL means. Nodboy is forcing a lightgem on you, so I don't really know why you bring this up again and again. Weapons are not really needed on the HUD. Doing distinctive models the player can see what he has equipped just by glancing at the screen. Yeah. I know why you are annoyed about this. Because we couldn't make our minds up and now we have 351 icons simoultanously on the screen. I didn't tell you this earlier because I was afraid you wouldn't approve, but after carefully thinking it through I came to the conclusion that we can't do without them. Yeah. That's why we provide the default version. That's what choice is about. And as long as YOU are not forced to use this version, I don't see a problem. It's not as if you need to stick to it. I don't want your playstyle and you don't want mine. You should be able to respect that because it will not interfere anway.

There were some lights and security systems in T2 that you could track back (via wires along the walls) to a light switch or shut off circuit switch. I feel having wires along some walls were necessary in T2, and will be for DarkMod -- for certain situations and missions. It was fun trying to find the source of certain things. Not sure if this really applies to what's being worked on here, but thought I'd mention.

While we will indeed come up with a backstory for a campaign, the Dark Mod is primarily an editor. It will be up the FM authors to come up with backstories for their missions and campaigns. We can't wait to see what they will come up with!

Mapping for our mod will be pretty much the same to mapping for Doom anyway, you'll be using the same editor. If you are familiar with DoomEdit and have made Thief fan missions in Dromed, then we won't be able to teach you much

These are a few suggestions made by mrD. (He is too shy to post them himself, so he made me do it) "The problem is, we're building universal themes that are to be used by others. It'd be much easier to make themes for a set of missions for example. But that is not the case. And they need to be on the same level quality and production-wise." The technical bits: Format Length Loudness Basic rules No samples used in the game are to be present in themes Anything that would make themes interfere with game sounds should be avoided Themes should be a layer

We were all disappointed with T3. We steering well clear of T3ishness. However, FM authors can make whatever stype of missions and campaigns they want with the toolset we provide. Start working yours out now

We won't be supporting multiplayer as it is currently the focus of the Night Blade Mod, another Thief style game. I'm sure fan mission authors could mod our tools once released and modify it to be balanced as a multiplayer though. As it stands now though, we are balancing the editing tools for classic single player missions.

Anyway, on certain missions, we can make it so that the time does change...new guard patrols, sunlight, everything! Scripting D3 > scripting DromEd

Thx for the replies NH. I remember you too from the IS boards. You and John P. provided the best mods for TDS IMO I'm wondering if I can ask many questions without it looking bothersome Well anyways: - Is wall flattening included? - How big will the mod game be? - Will you have a central hub for missions, like the city in TDS? - Are there more movement speeds beyond Run, Walk, Creep? - Is there a 3rd person view? - What equipment from TDS will be included/not included? Thx for any replies, most appreciated PS sorry for this being in the wrong board

It's very important to remember that we are first and foremost creating a set of modding tools for Thief style fan missions. We want to give the fan community as many, if not all, of the classic Thief tools as possible. We shouldn't really be arguing about these details at this point. It's just part of the job we've set out to do. With that in mind, we are putting a lot of these tools in there because they were in the original LGS games, but that's our focus for the FM tools, not the campaign. We have to keep that distinction. For the campaign, we can cut ties to whatever we wish and go crazy.

I also thought about that, but the problem is that they would become pretty useless. If you plant a mine in doorway there is no way to hide it there. And since many missions are indoors, that would render the mine pretty useless. And a guard going under a desk? When would it do that?

One thing that bothered me somewhat is that in Thief is that you would be searched for in odd circumstances. In Cragscleft, I released the prisoners, but made a racket in the process. The prisoners who should be running for their lives try looking for me, and when they find me they run to a hammer who kills them. Allow for some room for AI so that not every mission has to be about breaking and entering. There could be downtime missions where you are just exploring the City streets in mid-day with a throng of other citizens. These would help make storytelling more flexable. I must say I'm very impressed! Please keep up the diligent work

I don't hate HL2 or steam, ist just that you can't change editor right away. And i think doom3 is more like a zombie game. HEHE! but me and rgun really talked for it about a week, and i can really see the posebilityes of using source, becouse that really blow him away and got some really nice ideas for the mod and the missions. witch i ofcourse can't speak of here. And our streets in doom3 became laggy when we put some models in and even we made viportals it couldn't work So now i can't make medieval strugtures any more.HEH. Well..... nothing to do about it. HAMMER SUCKS!