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I liked opening a lock in Still Life. Is TDM the same?

D3 scripting is VERY customizable... IMHO, this is the sort of thing that could easily be done on a map-by-map basis without much (or any?) support from TDM. Well, maybe something like a func_pressure_plate might be helpful. But things like locks which trigger/disarm traps should be doable assuming the lock code is well designed to interact with scripts.

I should point out that a large number of the ambient sounds and sound efffects in the original thief series are actually commonly available sample sets, many of which are already in the public domain. I've played around and analysed some of the samples, many of them are bit for bit IDENTICAL to samples used in Unreal (Unreal uses mostly public domain sound FX - I've heard the samples in Unreal in all kinds of TV shows, films games, particularly low budget ones, which suggests they are either free or very cheap), DF:Jedi Knight, and a host of other computer games. The sample in Thief played when you eat a food item is a typical example - I don't think anyone knows who (if anyone) owns the copyright on this sample, I recently heard it on a television commercial for a food outlet for example, and it was a small restaurant, I doubt they spent any money on it. If you trawl around on the web, you might come across it, but I doubt anyone knows where it originated from. Also, samples that are under a certain length (typically 30 seconds in many jurisdictions) are not covered by copyright - they are often deemed too small to be worthy of copyright. So apart from the voice acting and ambient music, you could probably rip and redistribute most of the samples in T:TDP, T:TMA, T:DS without any legal consequences, because the samples are either already Public Domain, they are too short to be copyrighted, the original copyright holder is unknown, or they are not distinct enough that anyone from Eidos is going to notice that they are there. Most game companies use a lot of PD samples because it is cheaper than paying a foley artist to make new samples. Almost every conceivable sound effect has been done, so it is generally cheaper to use as many freely available samples, and fill the rest out with commercial sample CDs, and do foley and voice acting as a last resort. Unfortunately, the voice acting and ambient music samples are definately protected by copyright, so that part of the sound crfs would not be redistributable. Besides, like I've said many times, TDM should be a distinct game, and should avoid resembling Thief too much.

That's not what I said. Distributing copyrighted game content with your FM is flat-out illegal. It's something that can be gotten away with for the most part, but TDM is in a position where such reuse would be subject to particular scrutiny. What I DID say is that, basically, however the end user obtains the required CRFs is their own business. This distribution model (if you can call it that) has worked exceptionally well for programs like MAME. No reason it wouldn't work here either. New Horizon, I'm not talking about AI barks. I'm talking about things like Garrett's quips, or conversations between characters, or even just really cool ambient sounds. Things that would be easy and desirable to reuse.

I don't think this would work quite so easily. We would almost have to design for two different foundations. The Thief vocal sets don't have exactly the same counterparts in TDM. Some of the projects being discussed at TTLG would be far better suited for this, as they are aiming to recreate the dark engine but in an updated form. Their AI states and vocal keyset would directly mirror Thief 1 and 2. Ours doesn't and would likely take quite a bit of retooling to have the correct responses play ingame. Not really worth the added work when you think about it.

Not installed. The files can be copied directly off the CDs, if I recall correctly. So you'd only need the CDs, which I feel safe predicting the overwhelming majority of TDM players will already have. For those who don't have them, there's eBay. Or for those who just want the CRFs... well, let's be honest here... there's always P2P. And I don't see anyone getting too worked up over it. Game publishers are far more concerned about piracy of current games, not niche titles that are almost a decade old. CRF is ZIP. PK4 is ZIP. The sounds are WAV files (screw the old graphics, I'm thinking about the wonderful sounds). Formats shouldn't be a problem.

if the crf is just a zip, perhaps you could tell the person to just rename it to a pk4 (the pk4s in doom3 are just renamed zip files). sounds like a very intriguing idea then you could recreate the OMs from thief 1/2/3 but in tdm and legally too. At least, this would be legal in AU afaik.

I can see two sticking points with this approach: 1) If the mission author was to avoid copyright infringement by distributing his mission, it would be necessary for all players to have the Thief game installed as well as Doom 3 and the Dark Mod, which seems unduly burdensome when the author could just have used original content and avoided the issue. 2) The old Thief assets would be noticeably inferior in quality to what players familiar with the Doom 3 engine are expecting. Textures and models would be a non-starter, while sounds might be OK but even those are probably poorer quality to what TDM players will be used to. Obviously, it may be that this is not even technically feasible (I don't know whether the SDK allows you to load different formats) in which case these points are moot. What WOULD be possible is to create a custom script that converts the SND.CRF into a PK4, so that the sounds can be imported manually, but I don't know how many authors would want to do this when they would not legally be able to distribute the resulting mission.

I just noticed that the soundshaders use the prefix "tdm" instead of "darkmod". I guess this should be changed. No point in using different prefixes everywhere.

These days security systems have gotten so advanced that it is very difficult to become a master thief like in the days of old - it is usually brute force methods (like using a 4WD and chains to drive off with an ATM) and violence that will get you some petty cash, or electronic fraud, like using automated malware to continuously siphon off half cents from internal bank transactions and deposit them in an offshore bank account.... But here again is the case for not having weapons for the player in TDM. Real master thieves don't use them, and if we are to suppose we are playing a master thief, as opposed to some rough second rate thug, there should be no weapons, and minimal tools. There. I've said it again.

Well the arrow would be either magical or have some chemical which gives it those properties. I believe the normal settings that were going to be in TDM were if a guard was alerted by a player they would remain alerted, the difference between the rock and the arrow is the arrow will reset their alertness but the rock will just set them off and not give them any closure on the matter. They won't even find the arrow or the rock. Which could be a whole new arrow in itself, the peacemaker, hitting a guard with one will basically render them unawares that you are something to kill, they still know you are there but they won't do anything about you. Until you do something to them and then they retaliate.

Oh. Never mind. I really don't care. Doom3 has the shadows, Source has the physics. Shadows are more important. Pleased to hear I won't get stuck in TDM windows.

Well, crates are there in TDM and you can stack them as high as the physics allow and also climb them. But I guess it will not be as in T1 /2 because now the crates have physics applied to them.

SDK = C++. You can use the editor and everything, but if you want to add new features you either have to learn scripting or C++, depending on what you want to do. For normal map creation within TDM you don't need to learn the SDK though.

What I mean by documentation is various things I've documented so far like getting characters into doom, normal mapping, setting up ragdolls on custom characters, etc. Most of the team will write documentation and tutorials about their own area of expertise, some concerning doom in general, and some concerning TDM.

As for the documentation, I don't know what you mean by that. I have written a few tutorials for SDK development for stuff that I found out. If you mean TDM documentation, of course we have to do this. After all, it would not be much use if we release it and tell the poeple to go and figure it out on their own.

Yes, I am quite familiar with "The Amazing" James Randi. While he does some good work exposing frauds, he is not a scientist. He is a stage magician and professional skeptic. He also designs the tests and sets the condition for "winning" the million dollars (many people have asked him for proof that the million dollars actually exists, but that proof hasn't been forthcoming yet). If people don't want to agree to the conditions of his test, then they 'agree' to not participate, at which point Randi can point to yet another failed attempt. I could offer a million dollars as well to the first TDM team-member to prove they are a real person, yet set the 'victory' conditions so that they could never realistically be met. Offering a million dollar reward is great for press, and for Randi's personal publicity, but it doesn't make good science. Anyone who has visited Randi's website is familiar with his, shall we say, strong personal bias towards materialism. Given this bias, his lack of scientific credentials, and his personal control over the conditions of the test, it is hardly surprising that serious researchers are not lining up to try and claim it.

Thief did get old, even with some great FMs out I lost interest last year or so. Its going to be really cool to see all the differenent spins TDM give rise to.

Those last 2 posts' ideas are amazing. I would love to be a rat and scurry though a difference engine, and the clockwork scouting orb sounds cool! Why won't TDM have scouting orbs, TII style, by default? I read somewhere you're not doing them.

So it can't bung a render effect on twice? I'm not surprised really, considering TDS water, which was simplified I think as they couldn't have reflections of shadows or something without massive performance drops. Does TDM water reflect all?

The problem is not that they're not similar to the T2 ones, but that you're on the one hand saying "TDM Pagans are not like TMA Pagans" yet the only reason they're like they are is because they're called the same thing as TMA (and TDP, sorry) Pagans! I don't want something identical to LGS pagans - they had flaws, and it would make this mod a clone. But the reason for making them celtic (or celtish, given that there are other concepts) seems to be an odd, tenuous one. And yes, the checked trousers DO cause problems for me

Thiat is the irony of Christianity et al - most of the traditions and practices of typical Christian religions like Catholocism are just old pagan traditons rebadged so it was easier to convert people... In fact, a great deal of what the Catholic church (for example) practices completely contradicts the original teachings of Jesus, who very clearly thought organised religion was a crock of shit. I find religion and the people that buy into it an endless source of amusement - people who are gullible enough to believe the word of some lunatic who claims to have received the word of God from on high during a schizophrenic delusional episode or while he was doped up on hallucinagenic herbs, or preposterous fairy tales told by some barbaric tribe of inbred desert nomads really ought to be quietly euthanised... but I digress... I really don't care what factions there are in TDM, they are just there to create a backstory and depth to the game, it doesn't matter if they are based on this sect or that cult or this tribe or whatever.

Hmm, PC gamer gave only 70%... The game is developed by Raven, my would-be favorite company (SotSR creators). But their recent games dissapoint me. I hope Quake will have all and more than DooM 3 had. Loads of weapons. There were, ahem, 20 weapons in Turok 2. So many in Quake? Favorite weapon - shotgun - shame. I love shotguns, but I would also wish to see something less instant. A plasma rifle in Quake IV, anyone? Well, I don't think F. E. A. R. has a lot of AI. Scripts, rather. Storyline, eh? I don't think a game like Quake will have a storyline ever... Or F. E. A. R. Since when moss arrow is a weapon? I though it was a device. I never managed to kill anyone with it. I didn't find Quake II enemies strong... 10/10 - last time I saw this with Half-Life 2... To Macsen - I think I'll like TDM more than Quake IV. I never was a fan of Quake anyway. Besides, Quake is just a shooter for fun, Thief is more complicated...

If Q4 is similar enough, we might. Of course we can spend our time with upgrading to the ever next best engine, instead of implementing what is required. The we will always be on top of the mose 7331 cewl new engine, but we never will finish TDM, because we only have limited time. No name yet. We have planned the campaign and laid out the plot so far, though. So we have planned ahead. The toolset. Yes. This might be realistic. Though this most likely will not be the finished product, it is more likely a public beta test. Don't know where this crap comes from. I guess it may just be wishfull thinking. It is very doubtfull that a Thief 4 is coming, and even if it comes it most certainly has nothing to do with Thief as we know it, from what I read. As for the D3 engine being outdated in 2 years, that's just hilarious, because by this time the games will appear using that engine. Only this year the Q3 engine was released as GPL because it was still in use, so this may give you a good hint at how long it will take until D3 is really outdated.

That's a) subjective and not the whole argument. Variety is more than adding alternative methods to whack people, it's about variety of gameplay. That said, I do see your point, oDD; hopefully TDM will have enough variety from different level design techniques without having to resort to allowing less stealth. And with THAT said, I still support the idea of a weapon that'll get you out of a sticky situation, because it's unrealistic for a thief that good to be arrogant enough to believe himself better. While not necessarily 'pedigree' - for example, a well blended mix of stealth and action, it is necessary for gameplay to be appropriate and balanced. Clearly, an arcade game and a WWII simulator do not work together, so just a big mish-mash of genres will suck. You need to at the most pick a few, if not just one.