Ungoliant's mapping questions

[ungoliant]

 

can someone tell me exactly what is wrong with this picture? possible culprit could be that I added noSelfShadow to the material, but I don't see how that would affect the model in this way.

[Arcturus]

You mean that it's lit from the back? That may be because of noselfshadow. Did you remember to apply any scale or rotation done in object mode (if there was any)?

[ungoliant]

You mean that it's lit from the back? That may be because of noselfshadow. Did you remember to apply any scale or rotation done in object mode (if there was any)?

 

seeing as i can't figure out what you mean by that, i'll assume there is no scale/rotation. i made the model, i made the low poly model. they share the same xyz space, i baked the textures, and then exported without moving anything. could you give a short example of when and where rotating or scaling could screw things up?

Edited April 27, 2012 by ungoliant

[Arcturus]

You can rotate or scale your model in edit mode or in object mode. If you do scale or rotation in object mode you can always discard those changes (clear rotation /scale) or fix them (apply).

[Springheel]

can someone tell me exactly what is wrong with this picture?

 

Looks right to me.

[Nosslak]

If that works, that is pretty friggin cool. I don't follow the part about masking though, I don't know what it does in this context or how to do it.

Didn't you or someone else mention that the mesh should be smooth in some places and noisy in others? That's what I thought about when I wrote that.

 

Also, whats the blue channel in the normal map do?

The blue channel is the depth. If you just disable it it'll basically only overlay the details of the normalmap while keeping the underlying ones forms intact. Don't realy know the technicalities but I read about it on Polycount a long time ago and have just used it since then as it has worked great for me.

 

Having trouble figuring out how to make anything other than random patterns, considering that its going to be projected from UV's. Some concentric rings would be nice, but I can't fathom how to get it done without applying the stupid image onto the highpoly mesh as a displacement.

I'd just sculpt that on the highpoly. If that's not an option (because of performance) you could try to just texturepaint it in Blender with b/w and then convert that to a normalmap that you overlay on the regular normalmap (obviously not as good as sculpted but it could work).

[ungoliant]

Thx for the help guys, as always.

Looks right to me.

Wat are you serious? look at the light bleeding through to the backside of the model. that torch in the background is the only lightsource other than ambient. should not be happening.

 

Ok, I had another problem but managed to fix it myself this time, but I still haven't figured out WHY it happened. I was rebaking a new normalmap from a slightly altered highpoly, and got some weeeeiird ass results, and the problem would not resolve itself until i disabled all the geometry-influencing textures in the target lowpoly material. These don't REALLY influence the actual geometry, just how they react to light, yes? So why are these textures fukkin wit mah normal bakes?

[ungoliant]

New question out of left-field. I'm considering starting a new project based on RiB's work on animated normalmaps (which i still haven't thoroughly inspected yet). I'm going to make an animated lightshader for water reflections/refractions based on 2 images that deform in a sinusoidal pattern, and scroll in different directions. would it be easiest to do this by by animating geometry on a plane(s), and saving the results as like an animated heightmap or something, and using that result as the diffuse for the light?

[Arcturus]

look at the light bleeding through to the backside of the model. that torch in the background is the only lightsource other than ambient. should not be happening.

I think turning self shadow on will fix this. If you think it will not look good, you can try making simplified shadowmesh. Anyway it doesn't look that bad and remember that in a cave you will have lots of rocks so disabling shadows may improve performance.

These don't REALLY influence the actual geometry, just how they react to light, yes? So why are these textures fukkin wit mah normal bakes?

Textures that are set to Influence -> Geometry: Normal will be baked just like real polygons (not on AO).

...and saving the results as like an animated heightmap or something, and using that result as the diffuse for the light?

You plan to create special light that shines above the surface with animated texture? I don't think anyone has tried that.

[Nosslak]

Ok, I had another problem but managed to fix it myself this time, but I still haven't figured out WHY it happened. I was rebaking a new normalmap from a slightly altered highpoly, and got some weeeeiird ass results, and the problem would not resolve itself until i disabled all the geometry-influencing textures in the target lowpoly material. These don't REALLY influence the actual geometry, just how they react to light, yes? So why are these textures fukkin wit mah normal bakes?

Do you mean that you're using displacement texture for the lowpoly mesh? If so why? Why don't you just apply those displacements (use displacement modifier instead of texture option) and then bake to that model (because you want to keep the lowpoly baking model as close as possible to the final model, as a matter of fact if you can help it you shouldn't change the model at all after the baking process)?

[ungoliant]

You plan to create special light that shines above the surface with animated texture? I don't think anyone has tried that.

muahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa. Yeah i got the idea from playing Deus Ex Human Revolution. They had some really great animated lighting effects in the sewer areas that shine on the walls and pipes and things.

Edited April 28, 2012 by ungoliant

[ungoliant]

Do you mean that you're using displacement texture for the lowpoly mesh? If so why? Why don't you just apply those displacements (use displacement modifier instead of texture option) and then bake to that model (because you want to keep the lowpoly baking model as close as possible to the final model, as a matter of fact if you can help it you shouldn't change the model at all after the baking process)?

no no no, I applied previous normal bakes and a test version heightmap as textures to the material of the lowpoly for rendering in blender to preview results. these textures were messing up subsequent normal bakes, and i had to disable them. The lowpoly model being baked onto is the final lowpoly, i have never modified the mesh since i finished it initially.

[Baddcog]

You can have

Noshadows

selfshadows

 

On the rock.

 

Then use shadow2 for the shadow mesh so it doesn't cast weird shadows and it should be right.

[ungoliant]

Playing with heightmaps:

 

 

I can't figure out how all this random-ass noise is being generated. The method I'm using to bake is thus: apply generated image as a texture on high-poly, influences geometry only. bake normal from highpoly on to lowpoly. done. is my procedure very poor? or is something more nefarious afoot?

Edited April 28, 2012 by ungoliant

[nbohr1more]

can someone tell me exactly what is wrong with this picture? possible culprit could be that I added noSelfShadow to the material, but I don't see how that would affect the model in this way.

 

It simply looks like the edge-detect from the new enhanced Interaction Shader is picking-up the edge of the normals as they angle towards the light.

 

If you use the "Normal" interaction shader do you see the same artifacts?

 

If you added a shadow mesh inside you might be able to mitigate the problem?

(Unless you already have a shadow mesh... perhaps it's leaking then?)

[ungoliant]

nah, it shows up in blender too. looking at the actual image of the normal map, theres little random colored dots thrown around.

[Nosslak]

I'll just post how I'd do it:

1. Get or

a quality tile-able stonetexture with flat lighting.

2. Convert it to greyscale in Photoshop (Image>Adjustments>Black & White).

3. Run xNormals or Nvidias Photoshop plugins to convert the texture to a normalmap (I prefer xNormals as nVidias produces weird alpha/transparent normalmaps for me).

4. Place the new detail normalmap on top of the baked one in the layer palette in Photoshop.

5. Change blending mode from Normal to Overlay.

6. Turn off the blue channel on the detail layer (just double-click on the layer and uncheck the B checkbox under channels).

(7.) You might want to duplicate the detail layer a couple times and blur them (with gaussian blur) by different amounts to enhance the forms. Detailed here.

8. When you're completely finished with the texture merge all layers and run the normalize filter (from xNormal or Nvidia).

 

This workflow will give you greater control as you can change the strength and where you want the noise as opposed to the other where you baked it all together.

 

I think there are similar filters for Gimp too, but I don't know for sure.

[ungoliant]

Just to be clear, Noss, we are using completely different methods here. I have done 0 of your steps. I am generating normals from geometry, not a diffuse image.

 

Ok, I've been messing around, and still have not made any headway, so here is a blender shot that maybe is more illustrative:

 

 

The left 3D panel shows the high/low poly together overlapped for baking. The first normal image is a result of baking the highpoly to the lowpoly, with JUST the mesh. The 2nd normal image occurs when baking the high to lowpoly, with the "height" texture enabled on the highpoly, as seen in the texture panel at right. but theres all kinds of noise all over the image. I've played around quite a bit, but I cannot get a clean image when using any sort of heightmap image on the highpoly and baking it to the low. ideas..?

[Nosslak]

Just to be clear, Noss, we are using completely different methods here. I have done 0 of your steps. I am generating normals from geometry, not a diffuse image.

I know you're generating the details from geometry and that is what I always do too. What I detailed above is what I do when I want to add extra details to a geometry-based normalmap without sculpting any tiny details. If you want to try my method then you can use xNormals filters to convert the image to a normalmap and generate some AO and cavity from that as well.

 

The left 3D panel shows the high/low poly together overlapped for baking. The first normal image is a result of baking the highpoly to the lowpoly, with JUST the mesh. The 2nd normal image occurs when baking the high to lowpoly, with the "height" texture enabled on the highpoly, as seen in the texture panel at right. but theres all kinds of noise all over the image. I've played around quite a bit, but I cannot get a clean image when using any sort of heightmap image on the highpoly and baking it to the low. ideas..?

You'd probably want to use the displacement modifier instead of the displacement property in the material as that gives you more control. I think what is happening might be that the displacement is so strong that it makes some parts intersect with themselves.

 

Also if you want to displace it via the materials you'll need to use the displace value instead of the normal as the normal only bends the light without changing the geometry.

 

I can't see the whole unwrap, but to be honest it looks really bad. It looks like you have at least 6 separate islands while you most probably could make it more efficient and prettier with just one. I realize that it's no fun to re-do a model but if you'd just make one single seam along the height of the stalagmite on one of the sides and hit U->Unwrap it you'd probably get a much better unwrap with a lot fewer seams, a lot less wasted space and maybe higher texel density.

 

If nothing else works you could try to bake it with xNormal which is a much better program for the task anyway as it's got more maps and better control.

[ungoliant]

I know you're generating the details from geometry and that is what I always do too. What I detailed above is what I do when I want to add extra details to a geometry-based normalmap without sculpting any tiny details. If you want to try my method then you can use xNormals filters to convert the image to a normalmap and generate some AO and cavity from that as well.

There will be a point when i will do that, but it is not yet. I'm working now under the assumption that the diffuse is completely flat and smooth, and making a universal normal map, which can then be overlayed with normals from diffuses that are bumpy, like sandstone, or cracked rock. At that point, i'll likely try out your method.

 

You'd probably want to use the displacement modifier instead of the displacement property in the material as that gives you more control. I think what is happening might be that the displacement is so strong that it makes some parts intersect with themselves. Also if you want to displace it via the materials you'll need to use the displace value instead of the normal as the normal only bends the light without changing the geometry.

I've been trying to avoid that, because the end result of sculpting the highpoly led to very unevenly dispersed polys, which cause displacement mod to use varying strength all over the model. Yeah i know know, vertex groups and weighting and yadda yadda, I've been trying to take the easy way out

I can't see the whole unwrap, but to be honest it looks really bad. It looks like you have at least 6 separate islands while you most probably could make it more efficient and prettier with just one. I realize that it's no fun to re-do a model but if you'd just make one single seam along the height of the stalagmite on one of the sides and hit U->Unwrap it you'd probably get a much better unwrap with a lot fewer seams, a lot less wasted space and maybe higher texel density.

Either I screwed up the lowpoly mesh pretty bad, or I am incapable of creating good UV's, because I simply cannot make a single island, or even 2 islands work well. it warps all over the place, and no amount of manipulation seems to even it out. So instead, I created i think like 5 horizontal seams, wrapping around the thinnest points of the model. Also, using 1 island on this model causes the uv mesh to be very tall and narrow, resulting in LOTS of wasted space (iirc from early attempts)

 

If nothing else works you could try to bake it with xNormal which is a much better program for the task anyway as it's got more maps and better control.

was hoping to avoid learning any more software in an effort to get 5 or 6 cave themed models into 1.08, god knows when 1.09 will be coming out.

Edited May 1, 2012 by ungoliant

[Nosslak]

I've been trying to avoid that, because the end result of sculpting the highpoly led to very unevenly dispersed polys, which cause displacement mod to use varying strength all over the model. Yeah i know know, vertex groups and weighting and yadda yadda, I've been trying to take the easy way out

What you need is MOAR GEO! Just keep subdiving it (with the modifiers) as far as your computer can handle and then generate the geometry from that. One of the nice things about xNormal is that it never renders the models so you can use a lot more polys for them.

 

Either I screwed up the lowpoly mesh pretty bad, or I am incapable of creating good UV's, because I simply cannot make a single island, or even 2 islands work well. it warps all over the place, and no amount of manipulation seems to even it out. So instead, I created i think like 5 horizontal seams, wrapping around the thinnest points of the model. Also, using 1 island on this model causes the uv mesh to be very tall and narrow, resulting in LOTS of wasted space (iirc from early attempts)

It should look pretty good as one single island but otherwise you could just try to make them two islands with 2 vertical seams instead. They will be very long, but because Doom 3 supports rectangular textures (ie 32*256 pixel textures) that's not really a problem.

 

was hoping to avoid learning any more software in an effort to get 5 or 6 cave themed models into 1.08, god knows when 1.09 will be coming out.

It's not a particularly hard to learn program so it shouldn't be too bad, but I understand where you're coming from.

[ungoliant]

subdividing the whole mesh again still leads to equally displaced polys. using fictional units, instead of some polys being 10x10 and 1x1 in size, they are now 5x5, and .5x.5. Displace seems to have a problem with this, so the smaller poly areas have lots and lots of detail, and the large poly areas have almost literally no detail at all. looks stupid.

 

Also, there's just no way i'm putting in new diffuses for these models. Its fucking redundant as hell, and TDM is already what, 2GB or more? i dont remember. but this is a bad practice, i'm not going to do it. That's also why i'm using the AO stage in the materials. Same AO can be applied to multiple diffuses easily, with 1 small black and white image. Normals, i dunno how i'm going to get around using multiple normals for skins, but if that's the minimal resources that must be modified and included, then so be it.

[ungoliant]

sorry bout the agitated post there, I get moody sometimes or something.

 

regarding xnormal: is there an optimal format for source models? i've been exporting a 330K poly version of my highpoly to .ASE for xnormalization for about.... 15 minutes now. I don't even want to know how big the thing is going to end up, and as i understand, people tend to use much bigger models than that.

[ungoliant]

great, now xnormal is giving me all sorts of lovely errors about external components throwing exceptions, among other junk about read / write operations. looks like i'll be spending the rest of the day defragging and chkdsking. xnormal is supposed to work with xp sp3, right..?

[Baddcog]

I assume Xnormal would work fine with XP.

 

a 3ds or obj file works fine with it. From Max you can even use the xnormal format. ase might not be the best file to use, and it really doesn't matter. The exported objects are only for baking, they don't have to be the exports that end up in game.

 

Shouldn't be too hard to learn to bake with it if you get past the issues. It's just adjusting numbers if you need the rays to reach further, etc..

 

Until we have compressed normal maps (maybe 1.09)? normal maps are the biggest files and add the most bloat. So refusing to make a specifc diffuse but saying you'll do multiple normals (for tiny bumps i assume) doesn't make much sense (If I read that right)