How to control where pointfile starts

[Springheel]

I'm used to using the method described on the wiki for finding internal leaks: http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Leaks#Internal_Leaks

 

The relevant part is:

Whenever a pointfile is created, the red line always starts at a specific entity (supposedly the first entity you placed in your map). We use that to our advantage in this system.

 

For the first time I'm having problems with this. The pointfile seems to be randomly changing which entity it starts the line from, which renders the method useless.

 

Anyone know how to control where the pointfile starts? Or barring that, some other method for testing for internal leaks?

[RJFerret]

If you've used the info_location system, the wrong ambient sound plays, or incorrect ambient light will show, if you have an internal leak, of course it doesn't point to it, just lets you know one exists. Ditto your visportals staying open. I've never used the pointfile, which sounded overly cumbersome.

[Springheel]

How on earth would you locate the leak if you can't use the pointfile?

 

I've used this method on three different maps and never had this problem with it before now.

[grayman]

After loading the file, I use CTRL-Shift-K to start following the line. It goes from the void and at some point passes into the interior, which is where the leak is.

 

If I were to follow the red line all the way to its end, I will find myself at the lowest-numbered entity that's not sealed off from the point of the leak.

 

That's the way it's always been.

 

If the line ends at a different entity each time, then one of two things is happening:

 

1 - the lowest-numbered entity that's not sealed off from the point of the leak keeps changing

 

or

 

2 - the entity where the red line stops has its origin in the void

[demagogue]

I wonder if you could open the .map file in a text editor and force a specific entity you want to be the first one just by resetting it there (unless it's in the DR file, then try that) -- if you can't already do it in the editor, like in the entity list(?). In Dromed you actually could reset the entity & brush order in the editor because the order mattered, so maybe DR can do it too?

[Springheel]

I will find myself at the lowest-numbered entity that's not sealed off from the point of the leak.

 

So it's the lowest number? That's helpful.

 

What's happening is that I had a red line drawing consistently from a specific entity, but then I moved that entity into a building--with all the visportals open--and suddenly a different entity started being at the end of the line. The building was completely unsealed, so there's no reason the entity should have changed. Only thing I can think of is that maybe I moved the entity's origin into worldspawn and didn't notice, but this happened multiple times.

[Springheel]

Nope. It's not drawing from the lowest numbered entity. Seems random from the middle of the list. I opened a gap, and the pointfile comes from a bush model. I move the model about 1000 units away, inside the same vis leaf, nowhere near any worldspawn, and suddenly the pointfile goes to a different entity. I move the bush back where it started, and the pointfile comes from it again. This is infuriating, as I can think of no other way to test for internal leaks other than endless trial and error.

 

I

[Springheel]

I cut the relevant portion out of the map, and saved it separately, and the same thing happened. Bizarre.

 

When I start the map, the pointfile comes from the light entity visible in image 1.

 

When I move that light over to the right, the pointfile starts coming from a different light, in image 2. The light has not been moved behind anything that is sealed, so it makes no sense to me why this is happening.

[RJFerret]

How on earth would you locate the leak if you can't use the pointfile?

 

Generally I just look from below. 90% of the time it's been apparent without having to trace the pointfile, or try to figure out which end is which. I also wanted to learn how to not produce leaks to begin with, so finding likely trouble spots has resulted in my new found ability to add geometry that is sealed to begin with, or successfully be able to seal existing geometry prior to initial dmap.

 

One big culprit is the DR tool that is recommended for making a room, which protrudes brushes from the surfaces of a brush. If you butt another room up to the first one, there'll be a grid sized gap in the floor just begging to be a leak.

 

I also tend to build, view, build, view, instead of building a ton that may or may not need changing (I subscribe to the, it-costs-three-times-to-redo what it costs to do properly to begin with). So a new leak will most likely be in my recent change or things related to that.

 

DR also is prone to "bad hygiene", so I learned to adapt and develop practices that minimize thing that lead to trouble.

 

I don't know if any of this helps answer your question, or provides any useful info, but a leak is going to obviously be at edges, and if not on the bottom, where prior geometry might be oddly meeting new geometry (junction of old and new). If it's not obvious, selecting the sealing geometry and only displaying that (hiding everything but selected) often makes it clear.

 

I'm also certainly not saying I avoid using pointfiles, they are great tools, but obviously kind of limited when it's an internal leak you can just spot before dmapping.

 

PS: Here might be a useful example, today I added a visportal to seal off a lower corner of my map...it was going to intersect func_statics and run along an uneven edge. I stretched it out where it should cover, then simply panned the view in DR along the uneven edge. Sure enough, there was a pyramid shape where it didn't meet anything. I added worldspawn to fill the gap in both dimensions and that was it.

 

Since most of our geometry essentially boils down to a cube, consisting of four edges on the bottom, and four edges on the top, there's only two initial places to look for leaks.

 

I've also stopped using clipper or the subtract tool except for very specific purposes. I also make sure if I do clip something, I'm doing it on the grid, and never resize anything with a cut angle. Finally I'm more apt to drag points to make an unusual shape than clip it.

 

Sorry to babble, if I am, it's been an unusually long day, with limited food way too spread apart, and abbreviated sleep.

[Obsttorte]

Maybe the method works the other way round, so it goes from the void to the inside and connects to the lowest numbered entity in the first visportal leaf it enters!?

 

However, why is it so important to which entity it connects to? Isn't it only of matter where the red line enters from the void to the inside!?

[Springheel]

why is it so important to which entity it connects to? Isn't it only of matter where the red line enters from the void to the inside!?

 

For testing external leaks, yes. But suppose you want to check and make sure there are no leaks from a house to the outside street, so that sound from one doesn't leak into the other. The method I've always used is to identify the "anchor entity" for the red line, move it into the house, turn the visportals solid, and then open a leak in the street. If the pointfile goes from the anchor to the leak, then there is a gap in the house and I can fix it by seeing how the line gets out. If the pointfile doesn't start at the anchor, then I know the house is sealed tight.

 

If the pointfile randomly switches anchor entities, then I don't know whether the house has a leak or not.

 

I can put a speaker in the street and see if I can hear it, but then I'm stuck trying to find the location of the leak manually, and my building must be a lot sloppier than RJ's, because I've found all kinds of ways for things to get out that aren't obvious. Tiny gaps where brushes don't meet can hide all over the place.

[Obsttorte]

If there is an internal leak between to leafs, you can see that ingame as the visportals seperating them wont work properly.

 

For finding the leak I basically try opening one leaf to the void (which will work if I'm lucky) or make use of the location system. It's also useful to create a filter that filters all entities and patches, so that only the sealing geometry is shown in the editor.

 

If this won't work you can than export the worldspawn brushes into a map, place a player start there (which will be the only entity than) and look for the leak there.

 

I never had to go this far, though. My personal experience with leaks, especielly with inner ones, is, that they are a result of a sloppy working style. Over the FM's I've done their amount has decreased signifcantly. So maybe you should make more FM's

[Springheel]

If this won't work you can than export the worldspawn brushes into a map, place a player start there (which will be the only entity than) and look for the leak there.

 

This is working, thanks. It's bizarre, even if I have a single other entity (a worldspawn light in this case) in the map, it switches to it as soon as I move the anchor. Luckily it's working with just the player start in the map, and I'm finding internal leaks.

[RJFerret]

...than RJ's, because I've found all kinds of ways for things to get out that aren't obvious.

 

But I just did something silly which brought me back here for this technique, my visportals were working, but location sound was wrong, confirmed I didn't have internal leaks (using this worldspawn/player start only test...great to learn!)

 

Come to realize I'd left off info_locationseparators on four portals on another level. *facepalm