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Microphone support: Alert enemy AI with your voice


MirceaKitsune
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While I am not sure about the use of a microphone, I think there are reasons to consider a "shout" key to alert AI. That said, a change like this

might break existing missions so it still isn't a trivial consideration.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, nbohr1more said:

While I am not sure about the use of a microphone, I think there are reasons to consider a "shout" key to alert AI. That said, a change like this

might break existing missions so it still isn't a trivial consideration.

Hah, I was thinking about this too! A whistle or shouting key: You hold it down to charge aiming toward the middle... release too early you don't get enough of an alert, release too late you alert the guards too much. It could be used for people who don't have or don't want to use a mic.

I could in fact do this as the initial implementation of the system: People could use it with a key, then if microphone support is added later the volume would be used in the same calculation. One issue is requiring a new keybind, I don't believe the script system allowed me to extract individual key presses last I checked.

3 minutes ago, SeriousToni said:

For this we could just use noise makers or movable objects (throwing) , right? :)

Noisemaker arrow is used to cause alerts at a distance, not at the player's location. It's also not as effective, often times it fails to make guards move at all... should probably be buffed just a little bit at that.

Edited by MirceaKitsune
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3 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Noisemaker arrow is used to cause alerts at a distance, not at the player's location. It's also not as effective, often times it fails to make guards move at all... should probably be buffed just a little bit at that.

Why would you want to alert a guard at your position?

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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1 minute ago, SeriousToni said:

Why would you want to alert a guard at your position?

To draw them there from their original guarding spot so you can sneak past them. I've actually seen this strategy from another player... they were doing it by jumping in place. You don't want to alert them too much though: Just enough to make them go where you were standing and investigate, but without drawing weapons and running around or attacking you.

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10 hours ago, SeriousToni said:

Why would you want to alert a guard at your position?

There was a Splinter Cell installment where Sam could whistle to attract guards to a spot and then evade them. The sound range of this whistle was pretty small, so often it felt awkward that it isn't heard in larger distance, but IMO that wasn't the main problem. As we all know, stealth games like SC or TDM these are about scanning the environment, assuming a strategy and trying to execute it. The finite aspect of player resources is important and makes for different setups mappers can create. Whether it's a whistle or a mic-based sound, you're giving the player an infinite resource to cheese through your map, and it makes the gameplay awfully boring. I bet that the number of mappers that would want that is excatly 0.

10 hours ago, SeriousToni said:

For this we could just use noise makers or movable objects (throwing) , right?

Exactly. Not to mention implementing the whole idea, which can easily get complicated, like guards reacting differently to different sound levels your mic produces, etc. Good luck making predictable player tool out of that, and then teaching the player to use it effectively (long story short, that's a hell no from me :D).

Edited by peter_spy
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2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

As we all know, stealth games like SC or TDM these are about scanning the environment, assuming a strategy and trying to execute it. The finite aspect of player resources is important and makes for different setups mappers can create. Whether it's a whistle or a mic-based sound, you're giving the player an infinite resource to cheese through your map, and it makes the gameplay awfully boring. I bet that the number of mappers that would want that is excatly 0.

The "whistle" already is in TDM - it is just called "jumping" here.

I use it whenever i would use the whistle in other games.
I almost never use noisemaker arrows and for me, cheesing is part of the fun (so sad, that you can't water-arrow-splash guard-carried torches anymore).

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16 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

 (so sad, that you can't water-arrow-splash guard-carried torches anymore).

You can't?? 😳

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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7 minutes ago, SeriousToni said:

You can't?? 😳

I tried for half an hour in the newly updated No Honour Among Thieves v4 - EFX Edition campaign in the basement in level 3.
Guess some dev thought it to be too cheesy and "fixed" that fun stim/response exploit away.

Dousing torches held by guards was a significant part of my water arrow usage (i am a hoarder and rarely spend water arrows on static light sources)...

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5 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

Guess some dev thought it to be too cheesy and "fixed" that fun stim/response exploit away.

Why? It makes absolutely sense to be able to do that. Any developer care to explain the reason behind this?

Edited by wesp5
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I remember there was a discussion (as always) about that topic once a long time back, but I can't remember what was the final reason they now decided to decline this feature. I think someone said that the player could (realistically) never hit the flame of the torch in a way that it douses and would instead (again realistically) only wet the guard. I think it was a decision about how realistic it should be and not really gameplay wise - but I could be wrong. Really can't remember that for sure.

Personally I think player should be able to douse the flame still and make the guard alerted and take its sword out. If it is a torch, at least. Lanterns should be invulnerable. So the mapper would have the ability to set up a difficulty level, like:
easy = no light (dark)
medium = carrying torch (light, but extinguishable)
hard = carrying lantern (light, not extinguishable)

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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34 minutes ago, SeriousToni said:

I remember there was a discussion (as always) about that topic once a long time back, but I can't remember what was the final reason they now decided to decline this feature.

How long ago was this because I know I doused a torch guard in 2.9. I can't test it in 2.10 because the mission I remember doing it on isn't supported yet.

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6 minutes ago, Gin said:

How long ago was this because I know I doused a torch guard in 2.9. I can't test it in 2.10 because the mission I remember doing it on isn't supported yet.

Back when guards with torches were introduced

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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1 hour ago, SeriousToni said:

I think someone said that the player could (realistically) never hit the flame of the torch in a way that it douses and would instead (again realistically) only wet the guard.

If the player is able to hit a torch on the wall, why should he not be able to hit a torch that is carried?

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2 hours ago, wesp5 said:

If the player is able to hit a torch on the wall, why should he not be able to hit a torch that is carried?

I think the argument was that the water arrow splashes against the wall and hits the flame beneath it. That would not so easily possible with a moving, living target.

However that's just my vague remembrance of it. I wasn't taking place in that discussion either.

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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9 hours ago, SeriousToni said:

I think the argument was that the water arrow splashes against the wall and hits the flame beneath it.

This argument only works if there is a wall behind the torch and I bet all of us have doused torches from the side too.

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That^ seems like overthinking. If water arrow + torch = light off, players will expect it to work every time, whether it's moveable or not. I'd expect that just hitting a guard with it should make him drop the torch and start investigating. IIRC Thief 3 did that with both water and moss arrows.

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Again, that's not my argument, it's just what I remember from the discussion years ago. I would prefer torches to be extinguished but not lanterns. Somebody has to actually check that out in Dark Radiant. I don't know what the standard is here. :)

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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