TDM + Metroidvania == Fun New Genre?

[ChronA]

I've been on a bit of a metroidvania kick lately. There have been a bunch of notable 2D releases for the genre this year, and the backlog of excellent titles is nearly inexhaustible. One thing that surprises me though is that there are only a scant hand-full of first person metroidvania games. It's a shame. I've loved that kind of non-linear first person exploration experience ever since I played Metroid Prime on Game Cube; or going back further: to being lost an terrified Down in the Bonehoard, or searching for The Sword in Constantine's madhouse, and scouring the Old Quarter for the Haunted Cathedral and the ruins of the The Lost City.

That got me to thinking. Would it be possible to reproduce metroidvania level design and ability gated progression in a TDM FM? First person sneakers have no equal to their ability to convey atmosphere and environmental story telling, however they can be difficult to navigate and can lack for tangible progression to reward exploration (depending on the player's skill, playstyle, and interest in lore and loot). Metroidvanias contrastingly are all about progressively expanding the navigable map area in a very controlled and deliberate way while retaining non-linear exploration. They also provide very consistent and effective exploration based progression-rewards through an expanding toolbox of player-character abilities. However, they fall short of perfection in environmental storytelling because of a certain paradox: it is hard to focus on environmental storytelling when things are trying to kill you, but it is impossible to maintain atmospheric tension when things are not trying to kill you. Stealth games are the only titles I can think of that thread that needle flawlessly.

So it seems like a match made in heaven. My questions then are: firstly, are there any TDM FMs that already incorporate metroidvania level design and gameplay? Secondly, what technical challenging would producing such a FM present?
Probably the big one would be decontextualizing navigation gating skills as upgrades rather than default or ammo-based abilities. Currently only the lockpicks and maybe the lantern fit in that mold. Could mantling be turned into an upgrade? And if rope or vine arrows (or any elemental arrow type) were to become a key ability that opens gates, the PC might need a way to endlessly regenerate them when expended, or risk becoming trapped in an unwinnable game state. Additionally, genre conventions would just about demand adding a double jump and perhaps a slow-fall as ability upgrades. Come to think of it, the holy symbol astral-projection mechanic from Moonbo's A House of Locked Secrets also fits the bill.
The other technical issue I can foresee is how to handle enemy pathing. Depending on how vertical and discontinuous the level design were to become, conventional guards might have trouble reaching the PC. Maybe flying enemies would be called for? 

Unfortunately, I am not in a position where I can make fan missions for myself. (I've got too many other projects that I must finish first.) But I hope this idea might be interesting to someone else.  

[Gin]

The main thing I got out of metroidvanias was a focus on exploration, and I think TDM and Thief have that down already. You don't really need gated progression for that, and even TDM technically has gated progression with keys, rope arrows, broadhead arrows for buttons, spyglass for seeing written codes and notes from far away, etc. You would just need to design a mission to have these things not available at the start.

Hidden Hands: The Lost Citadel has a section that requires a rope arrow but you're not given one at start. The placement of the rope arrow might be a bit underwhelming if you're expecting something like Metroid, though.

Personally, I do prefer having a solid starting load out, even better if it's a shop, and focusing on exploring with the tools I have on hand rather than hunting down for all of the tools first. Though it would be a neat setup for a setting where Corbin got caught or something, I think I have seen FMs do this but usually all the lost equipment is in one place.

[nbohr1more]

Someone could take TDM assets and import them into something like Doom 3 "Hard Corps":

https://www.moddb.com/mods/hardcorps

Would require a great deal of coding to add stealth to that project though.

[freyk]

And when you add stealth to that mod, it becomes like assassins creed chronicles.

Nice idea, but I agree with Gin and nbohr1more. And i stick with fps'ses.

Edited October 30, 2021 by freyk

[demagogue]

I had an idea like this before, but I have too many ideas of other things I'd make before this kind of thing. But to answer your question, I think TDM could do it well and I'd be interested in somebody trying it.

I think the closest you get to this style of gameplay in actual FMs would be mansion missions, where the gated progression is more naturally explained, so Metroidvania style. A lot of the classic mansion missions in T2 & TDM could be seen like this.

Some T2 mansion FMs, which are more puzzle-like than usual, come to mind like Lord Alan's Fortress & Mansion of Dr. Dragon. I guess open city levels might fit the bill too, like Midnight at Merkbell (Calendra's Legacy) and Seven Sisters.

In TDM authors tend to be more story-focused, so not as gamey & mazey in the progression. There might be some, but I'd have to think about it.

[thebigh]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:19 AM, demagogue said:

In TDM authors tend to be more story-focused, so not as gamey & mazey in the progression. There might be some, but I'd have to think about it.

This is exactly right. It's difficult, and not really in the TDM style, to produce labyrinthine levels. Partly this is because TDM's heavy use of prefabs and muted colours; too many similar-looking hallways and little alleyways end up looking "samey" and you end up lost. Even more so than the original duology.

 

[ChronA]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:51 AM, thebigh said:

It's difficult, and not really in the TDM style, to produce labyrinthine levels. Partly this is because TDM's heavy use of prefabs and muted colours; too many similar-looking hallways and little alleyways end up looking "samey" and you end up lost.

That's a good point. But perhaps there is something to be learned in this respect from the genre of discussion. 

The characteristic level design feature of the metroidvania is "the bounce," where the natural path of progression causes the player to ricochet off of an obstacle that cannot be overcome until they expand their ability set. This has multiple benefits. Most important in this context, so long as the location is in any way distinctive, the operative significance of the bounce will ensure it becomes a memorable landmark for the player. This can work even when there is not a lot of variety in the level art. It's also a tease of future rewards for continued exploration, and a waypoint to return to once the new ability is acquired. Plus the previously stated progression reward when the fruits of your exploration let you overcome a lingering impediment.

Speaking of distinctiveness, that's the one problem I have with trying to do that sort of progression with literal keys. Art wise, locked doors are usually not too visually memorable. It can also be hard to discern which key opens which lock. Plus a key is generally not a tool that gets much use in the normal process of navigation or combat, nor one that holds much mechanical interest as a test of skill to employ. It might easily be forgotten. (Lock picks are infinitely better in this respect.) 

Gin's idea to use the spy glass as a key by reading a code from far away is really creative. It might take some super aggressive hand-holding by the level designer to make sure players understand that is what they need to do, but it would be darn cool to run across that in a mission.

Edited November 8, 2021 by ChronA

[ChronA]

If anyone ever tries to use this concept, here's my attempt at a helpful list of possible lock-and-key combinations in a rough descending order of how well they would work or how hard they would presumably be to implement. Also I’ll share a few level design tips that I’ve seen crop up in discussion of Metroidvania games.

Key and Lock Combinations:

Spoiler

Lockpick(s) – Open locked doors.

Slow Match – Light a torch or furnace that triggers some effect, or to provide light for navigation in pitch black areas.

Contextual teleport triggers (like in A House of Locked Secrets) – Virtually unlimited options for opening new paths... if the map maker puts in the effort.

A Box/Companion Cube – Climb up to ledges that are too tall to reach otherwise. Problem: lugging around a box gets tedious.

Lantern – Illuminate pitch black areas.

Key – Open locked doors that can’t be picked.

Sword – Break down wooden barricades. Problem: players may not realize they can do this since most objects are not destructible.

Blackjack – Shatter glass or stone panels. Problem: same as with the sword but worse.

Spyglass – Read a hint or other key bit of information from far away. Problem: how do you get the player to do this? Plus can’t the effect be cheesed by adjusting FOV? Perhaps this could be more reliably achieved with a trigger to checks when the player has the spyglass in the area of the hint and then unlocks a new objective with in-world effects.

Rope Arrow – Climb anywhere with a wooden surface. Problem: a depletable key risks progress-locking the player.

Water Arrow – Put out fires that are blocking your path or that trigger some effect. (Depletable key.)

Fire Arrow – Light a torch or furnace that triggers some effect without needing to be next to it. (Depletable key. The Slow Match is a better alternative in most cases.)

Vine Arrow – Climb any vertical surface. (Depletable key.)

Broadhead Arrow (or small stone or brick) – Break a glass window that is flush with a wall and not in reach for a melee attack. (Depletable key, and how do you denote which windows are breakable?)

Double Jump – Cross large gaps and reach higher ledges. Problem: not currently in the game.

Slow Fall – Survive drops that would kill the player otherwise. Problem: not currently in the game.

Speed Potion – Cross large gaps and get places extra fast. Problem: depletable, and not currently implemented in the game AFAIK.

(or) Running – Cross larger gaps and get places faster. Problem: already in the game as a default ability.

Climbing & Mantling – You know what it does. Problem: already in the game as a default ability.

Metroidvania level design tips:

Spoiler

When giving a new key, always immediately lock the player in a room where the must use all the new key’s abilities to get out. This ensures they understand how to use their new tool contextually before needing it in the wild.

Re-use every key frequently. If the player goes more than about 10 minutes of play time without needing any given ability, they will probably forget they have it. (More specifically their brain will re-categorize it as an out-of-context factor for their current task, and will ignore it.) So if you give the player lockpicks have them pick lots of locks. Give them a Slow Match that they will eventually need to light a torch to progress, force them to frequently light torches, etc.

Organize the level around hubs, loops and short cuts. The idea of backtracking to vanquish a stubborn lock with a newly acquired key is fun, but the actual journey to get there is usually not. This problem can be mitigated by organizing the level-space as a compact and highly interconnected network with shortcuts between nearly all important destinations that the player can open the first time they visit. This way backtracking can be minimized while still supporting active exploration.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by ChronA