Idea: Slightly increase the lightgem based on mouse movement

[MirceaKitsune]

I realized a fun change we could consider for the lightgem, which should also be fairly easy to implement if agreed upon. We know how aside from the amount of light shining on the player, some FM's increase the lightgem based on movement and crouching, you become more visible while walking and especially when running. I'd like to ask if anyone thinks we should additionally support a slight increase to the lightgem based on mouse movement.

Explaining how the idea came to mind is the best way to illustrate why I feel it would make the experience more fun. The player often hides in a dark corner waiting for a hostile AI to pass right by as they patrol: In any real scenario you'd be holding your breath as to not make any sound or the slightest movement, even breathing would stand out slightly and could get you spotted. Thus from a perspective of realism, it feels out of place that I can zoom the mouse all over without any consequence... merely turning your head would draw a bit of attention, let alone looking behind which implies the player turning their whole body around. Meanwhile from a gameplay perspective, it could be a welcome challenge having to not move the mouse when a guard is right next to you, keeping your mouse steady similar to how you'd hold your breath as you wait till the danger passes to look away... this would feel more exciting and add a new form of tension, especially as many players complained the AI feels too easy even on the highest difficulty settings.

Obviously the increase should be minuscule, possibly just 1 lightgem point: We don't want players feeling they can't look around while hiding, just not doing it too much when an enemy is right in your face. The best way seems like making it based on the movement speed: Moving the mouse very slowly could have no penalty, whereas jerking it suddenly could increase the lightgem by a few points so even in total darkness the AI sees something and may even catch you if you keep looking around rapidly while next to them.

Another debate is whether this should be a spawnarg new missions have to configure, similar to some existing visibility properties and lightgem offsets. Personally I'm in favor of defaulting it to a low value, just 1 lightgem point increase if it's fixed or something like 3 if it's speed based. Alternatively we could tie it to the difficulty setting... if it's controversial maybe just implement it as a hidden cvar we can try out? Very curious what you think so let me know your thoughts, I'd definitely like to at least see the concept tested!

Edited October 15, 2023 by MirceaKitsune

[wesp5]

I don't like this idea. In reality you can move your eyes and your head, you don't need to move your whole body.

Edited October 15, 2023 by wesp5

[thebigh]

There was a mechanic like that in SOMA, where one of the monsters could detect you more easily if you were looking at it. I hated it and I don't think I'd like to see anything like it in TDM.

Anyway, there is one case where moving the mouse can affect the light gem and that's when you're leaning.

[ChronA]

Seems like an inoffensive suggestion to me. It would not provide much of a challenge though since all one need do is let go of the mouse and voila: perfect stillness.

For that reason, to work as advertised I feel like it would need to be tuned to be a non-factor 98% of the time, such that even veteran players would forget it exists until suddenly, surprise! here's an edge case where it matters. Like: only movements greater than 90 degrees per second trigger the effect. Basically it would just be an in-game jump scare mechanic. If something makes you as the player character involuntarily jump or flinch then that has a chance of being spotted. In the hands of a devious FM author that could make for some extremely memorable scripted moments.

That's all just in principle though. In practice, this is an idea that would cost development energy to implement, and we want to make sure that investment is committed wisely. Remember how the community flipped the f*** out when Hazard Pay had the audacity to restrict saving, going so far as to make a mod specifically to negate the author's intent, and basically ensuring that no FM that's not a deliberate troll will ever use that feature again? Great use of resources that was. /s

[MirceaKitsune]

Thanks for the feedback. I can see the eye argument, but large movements imply turning either your head or body around... hence I agree this would be best done as a speed based increase so only rapid large movements count.

Keeping the mouse still isn't the challenge: The challenge would be that you can't safely turn to look around if you're in a very dangerous situation, you're stuck where the camera was last pointing unless you want to risk drawing that extra bit of attention from an AI searching for you. It's the thrill of an enemy being in the corner of the player's view, but the player has to resist the temptation of looking to see exactly how close they are.

[chakkman]

TBH, I'm all for keeping stuff easy. This brings more complexion to an already complex system, which takes into account leaning, movement speed, crouched and standing position and stuff.

I also think that most of the people here underestimate how hard this game is for beginners. It's even hard for me, and I played this game and similar games for almost 20 years now. TDM is a LOT harder than the Thief games, and, those were considered quite hard back in the days as well. I don't think the barrier of entry should be set even higher.

I also frankly see no benefit in terms of gameplay or atmosphere. And, if I may also say this: The original Thiefs didn't have it. May sound lame, but, I think this game tries to capture the feel and gameplay of the originals. Including certain gameplay mechanics, which IMO shouldn't be touched.

Edited October 16, 2023 by chakkman

[MirceaKitsune]

Fair enough. Trying to think back to when I first discovered TDM, which is already almost a decade ago: I don't remember finding it that difficult, though for the greatest amount of time I played on the easiest AI difficulty for sight and hearing, eventually settling for Forgiving (2nd easiest). Also I still play every FM on its Easy difficulty which is pretty lame, I've been wanting to do Normal and Hard modes of ones I know and hope to get to that once I finish playing with some more modding ideas.