Chloroform And Blackjacks

[Springheel]

It's just the work:benefit:newbadness ratio that needs to be considered, and needs to be considered hard.

 

That's my feeling as well.

[Domarius]

Some exploits, like the Nudge and the Leaning BlakJaK I did not use because they were obviously flaws in the Dark engine. Nonetheless, they broke immersion for me just KNOWING I could use them but choosing not to.

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Same. It's the act of choosing not to that contributes to ruining immersion.

 

It's just the work:benefit:newbadness ratio that needs to be considered, and needs to be considered hard.

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That's my feeling too. I think for now we could live with the AI being smart about everything else - the things I listed before (waiting at the bottom etc).

 

In real life I dont' think you'd climb up after someone who can be a threat because you wil ALWAYS be at a disadvantage once you reach the top, because they will reach it first, and get to do all sorts of things to you from there. You have a lot to lose - a long travel to the ground for one thing, if you fall.

[oDDity]

I'd be willing to forget ladder climbing if we got AI mantling and swimming working. Far more commonly used exploits by the player.

[Domarius]

Well I doubt guards would be much use in water with all that heavy metal on them. We need to make sure they don't fall in in the first place, that's the real exploit. Other than that, it's like ladders - try and block their exits, wait for them to come out, etc.

 

Well if we have to do mantling, then we have to do dropping (to get back down).

 

I still think even for those things, we should rely on the AI pathfinding to the best positions and hit you with ranged attacks, and guarding your exit points if possible.

[bob_arctor]

Yes I agree. If you program good guard AI for when the player is out of reach you can use it to counter anything, mantling, swimming, ladders etc.

 

Creating only ladder AI would be enough work, and then the player could mantle or swim and break the AI anyway.

[Maximius]

Heavy armor is a good rationale for an AI not climbing a ladder too, one tumble and you shatter some bones. My biggest concern with climbing AIs are the other Thieves, humanoid AIs like the ape-beasts, etc. who should be able to climb.

 

Speaking of swimming, are there any plans for including some sort of swimming beasties? maybe some fish to nip you, or a squid thingy to eat you?

[oDDity]

We're going to have one of the giant squid things from LotR guarding every body of water, even puddles.

[FishFace]

Surely those in the puddles would be dispensable with a *squish.*

[Domarius]

lol

[Darkness_Falls]

Could it be construed an exploit that AIs cannot climb ladders and, thus, you can *always* get away from AIs by climbing one? Just playing devil's advocate.

 

In real life I dont' think you'd climb up after someone who can be a threat because you wil ALWAYS be at a disadvantage once you reach the top, because they will reach it first, and get to do all sorts of things to you from there. You have a lot to lose - a long travel to the ground for one thing, if you fall.

This is true. Maybe the AI could do a quick search query to see if there are any other ways (other than the thief's ladder) to go up or down a level, based on where the thief went. If no other relatively nearby paths exist, then the AI will need to stay on the level s/he is at.

[Domarius]

Yes that's what I propose. In fact I had a whole system for this where you can draw a zone around any area the AI can't get to (a body of water, a ladder or elevator shaft) and mark off the exits, and the AI will know that if you are ever in that zone, to pick one of those exits and guard it. But apparently the existing Doom 3 pathfinding system can do something pretty close to this, so we will just experiment and see how intelligent the default AI can be.

[bob_arctor]

Sounds good

[Maximius]

We're going to have one of the giant squid things from LotR guarding every body of water, even puddles.

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Surely those in the puddles would be dispensable with a *squish.*

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Whats wrong with an aquatic enemy? One t2 FM had those little fishes that could nip you as you swam through them, taking a point of health here and there.

 

Oddity, heres a question for you as the AI modeller, how hard would it be to convert one of those giant dinosaur like demons from D3 into a dragon? Im thinking of the one in particular that looked like a t-rex.

[FishFace]

sorry, forgot my <sarcasm> tags!

 

I actually like the idea of water beasties, although it's unrelated to my views on swimming guards.

[oDDity]

Not all guards and facitons wear heavy armour, in fact only a few of them do, and it no more stupid for them to swim than the player, who's apparently carrying half a ton of euipment, gadgets, weapons and loot to go for a swim.

IF you're not going to take encumbrance into the equation for the player, then you can't use that as a rationale for the AI either.

I'm not familiar with the monsters for doom, Maximus, since I only played the first few levels before vomiting up all over it in complete loathing, hatred and digust, but the mere mention of 'dragons' and 'The Dark Mod' in the same sentence means I'm goign to have to put you down in my little back book as a philistine.

[bob_arctor]

But again why would a guard swim into the water with the player? You can't do a lot in the water, especially if it is deeper than you so you are treading water. Combat wouldn't work. Guards and players would sit next to eachother nudging eachother, as the player cannot use sword underwater, so neither should the guards be able to, especially as it's impossible in real life. And if the water is shallow enough to fight in then use the standing animations so the guards can wade.

[oDDity]

Depends o the size of the water and were it goes to. IF the player can simply escape by jumping in water and swimming away, leaving the AI shaking their fists on the shore, it's no good.

This is the big probelm with having such limited AI.

All the player has to do to escape is jump in water or climb a ledge or climb a ladder, none of which are remotely realistic.

It's just giving the player a endless supply of convenient bolt holes to run to every time they make a mistake.

[FishFace]

Well, they need some way of escaping, otherwise they just reload as soon as they're spotted. If you make it impossible or so difficult it's not worthwhile trying to get away with mistakes, then people will reload as soon as they make them.

[Maximius]

I'm not familiar with the monsters for doom, Maximus, since I only played the first few levels before vomiting up all over it in complete loathing, hatred and digust, but the mere mention of 'dragons' and 'The Dark Mod' in the same sentence means I'm goign to have to put you down in my little back book as a philistine.

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I can believe you have a black book, odd, but I find it hard to believe its little...

 

D3 did suck, after you got past the whizz bang graphics it turned into the usual boring Doom sequence, ambush, resources, ambush, resources, ambush, resources, level boss. About two thirds the way through there is a level boss that looks like a t-rex. So anyway, how do you feel about elves and hobbits in the Mod?

 

 

(runs and hides under desk)

[bob_arctor]

Well if the guards stay guarding the player can do nothing, and will have to get out/down eventually and face the consequences. And in a lot of situations it's not an issue anyway.

[oDDity]

Well if the guards stay guarding the player can do nothing, and will have to get out/down eventually and face the consequences. And in a lot of situations it's not an issue anyway.

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Except that givres the player free endless chances. Make mistake - run to ladder - go back - mistake - run back to ladder or water etc

 

Well, they need some way of escaping, otherwise they just reload as soon as they're spotted. If you make it impossible or so difficult it's not worthwhile trying to get away with mistakes, then people will reload as soon as they make them.

 

They do have many way of escaping. Finding a shadow or a hiding place, or using some of their tools. Those are fair ways of escaping, but exploiting the AI's unrealistic and artificial limitations of not being able to climb ladders, mantle or swim, gives the player a plethora of unfair ways to escape as well.

[Domarius]

Yes but all we can do is minimise those exploits - and balance the work involved with its "worthwhileness" - I think the work would be better spent on making them "wait there" in an inteligent fashion even if it gives the player chance to jump on the ladder (which is not that simple because they will all be ranged, remember), just because I reckon we could pull it off better than letting them climb ladders or swim.

[bob_arctor]

Okay if the AI is good:

 

Make a mistake, go hide in the water/climb ladder to pointless bit you can't access elsewhere/mantle up a bit, the AI guard follows you. He could stay guarding, shoot, get help. You go back to the place you messed up at -Oh no you can't because there was a small army waiting for you to get down/out and they killed you. D'oh! Or did you get around the army, maybe using a water arrow, invisibilty potion or flashbomb (I would actually use those last two in that situation, I never needed to in Thief, always found plain stealth better somehow, even if it meant reloading).

 

Of course this could increase chances of quickload but if you gave an Ironman bonus or 3 reloads and under bonus (no benefit just a Well Done) in the finish screen that would be cool. I would do it. Or optional objective. Just for fun really, like setting myself a 1 or 0 blackjack limit on T2x missions.

[Ombrenuit]

I personally find the idea of catching guards after you blackjack them intriguing. If they are armored or are carrying a drawn weapon, they would make a noise when they fall, while another NPC, such as a citizen or a nobleman would not present the same challenge. I haven't read all the posts regarding this yet, but perhaps after you blackjack them, their body becomes frobbable for a second as they slump, and you can catch them with a click of the right mouse button, and then crouch down which will allow them to slump to the floor. After you crouch you immediately lose your "grip" on the guard and he is on the floor, you are only dragging him for the time it takes for you to catch them and then crouch. On the floor you can lift them over your shoulder as usual or if you failed to crouch immediately after catching the guard, you could allow the player to drag the guard backwards as they have him slumped in the player's arms and just remove them this way. I think it would add a new, but also very fun gameplay skill.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Ombrenuit

[Maximius]

I like those ideas Om, heres a suggestion:

 

Guard is unalerted, weapon sheathed, you ko him and have to catch him but weapon is not a concern.

 

Guard is alerted, weapon is out, if you gas him or kill him and he drops you can still catch him, but the weapon hits the ground, loudly.

 

Another layer of difficulty, just a small touch but it would contribute to realism a bit without being a major hassle.