Scouting Orb, Anyone?

[Maximius]

-- I was't asking for the right to demand something, only advising that suggestions from front end users propably shouldn't be ignored if you plan to develope something that YOU want THEM to use. *If* you want me (or anyone else) to *use* your mods then there is the one basic demand that any user has... that it is worth their while.

 

No one has ignored any ideas here. It seems to me you are attacking a straw man. Ive put ideas up before, got some postive stuff back and some negative, ususally with a solid explanation about why such and such may not be a good idea. Its true the community has to be thought of but there has to be limits as well. The fact that they are taking the groaning amounts of time to save a game genre that would have died a horrible death with TDS, and more make a toolset to keep the good times coming, is certainly something that the fans want. How are they denying the community anything?

 

The team has decided for their own reason not to include the orbs, and although I will miss them I accept that because its their mod, not mine. . And why would a game without the orbs, or one or two other desired tools from games past, make the Mod *not* worth the users time? Im dying to use it and play with it, orbs or not. Its not as if they are making a mod that has nothing to do with the game universe we all love so well and demanding our support, it just has a number of important differences.

 

---[[please note that this post is more about design motivation ...Keep going guys, you rock!]]

 

You might have posted this part first.

[Maximius]

A 'KO arrow.' I kinda like that!

 

 

Thanks! That makes two of us........

 

 

Another kooky idea I had was a Fire Hornet Arrow witha capsule of ferocious Fire Hornets at the tip. You fire it and it releases the swarm, attacking living AIs. If you are too close to the scene, they can come after you too.

I had a guy try to code this for me in T2, unfortunately it proved to be............buggy.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2006 by Maximius

[New Horizon]

I see everyone has chipped into this discussion. Might as well let the official PR guy throw in his two cents.

 

It seems you're not paying close enough attention as to what this mod actually is.

 

I'm hoping that someone on our team hasn't described The Dark Mod as, "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels", because that is certainly not how we have set out to present it.

 

If you, or anyone else with similar feelings reading these posts have followed our work, then you will know that we are creating a "Thief Inspired", toolset. We are not recreating a carbon copy of Thief, nor are we legally entitled to do so, intellectual property is being respected.

 

We are taking inspiration from the series we love and creating a toolset that will allow FM authors to make their own missions. That being said, we have also stated fifty gigazillion freaking times, that anything we don't include can be added by modders in the community. The source files to the project will be wide open once we have released the toolset. What more can we do to appease the community I ask? We're already planning to give them far more control over the content than any of the previous 'official' games. Why is it arrogant for us to focus upon what inspires us to keep working? Should we focus on trying to include every single nit-pick and demand thrown at us, and do a half assed job....burning out in the process? There is no arrogance. There is only determination. Determination to finish this project. To do that, we will continue to focus on what we feel are the core elements for a "Thief Inspired" toolset. Naysayers be damned. We've already dedicated two years of our life to this work, and have at least two more ahead of us.

 

I'm sure the community will have climbing gloves, speed potions, slow fall potions and a scouting orb in the toolset within a week of release...so chill out, and that means everyone!

 

[Gildoran]

So I get the uber professional approach but I am still concerned about what you guys see as the final result of this project. There is talk about priorities, which I also understand, you have to stay on task, but is this going to turn out as a toolset that you guys are really proud to show off; an excellent Doom 3 mod showing of your leet modding skills, or, a really cool "toolset" that can create great thief levels with? If you are aiming to create a great toolset for 21st century thief levels, then who are you to say that scouting orbs, slowfall speed inv potions aren't essential thief? Apparently LGS thought they were and dismissing them off hand seems kind of arrogant.

 

Others have phrased it better but... people make mods/etc for themselves. If other people happen to like it, it's just a happy coincidence. In this case, you have a lot of people with a common goal working to create what we want to see out of a Thief-ish toolset. Right now, we just want to get a basic toolset with core gameplay done ASAP, without worrying about extras like invis potions or scouting orbs. All that stuff can wait until after the first release. In any case, when we finish the toolset, we'll release all of our source-code as open-source, so there will be nothing preventing you or others from easily adding scouting orbs and such to TDM.

 

Edit: Looks like NH beat me to the punch by a minute.

[SneaksieDave]

...we have also stated a fifty gigazillion freaking times, that anything we don't include can be added by modders in the community.

...we have also stated a fifty gigazillion freaking times, that anything we don't include can be added by modders in the community.

...we have also stated a fifty gigazillion freaking times, that anything we don't include can be added by modders in the community, mofo!

 

I came here to say that, but it seems NH has done so rather well already.

[Darkness_Falls]

It did, or at least became wolrd famous at the 1970 world cup in mexico, but you north americans, being shit at any sport that anyone else in the world actually plays, wouldn't know that. You probably even have o ask which sport is played at the world cup.

Then you should fix the Wikipedia entry, oDDity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audience_wave. According to that,

The wave was launched into the soccer community at the 1986 World Cup in Mexico, from which the name "Mexican wave" derives.

1970 isn't mentioned anywhere. Nor is there any mention saying it "started" in Mexico. I don't believe everything I read, but you should fix it if you know the facts.

[jtbalogh]

Forget about the scouting orb tool if the AI never see it sitting or hear it drop. The enemy needs a chance to go on alert. Dropping the orb into a shadow helps minimize alerts.

[Domarius]

Hey Raven, personally I'm REALLY sorry the first 2 replies you got back were from the 2 people on our team that I would LEAST vote for a PR role... neither are known for their diplomacy, shall we say.

 

I hope you'll trust me when I say it's not a true indication of the entire team as a whole.

 

New Horizon is our PR guy, and he's said it all, very well as usual.

 

But I would like to add another reason - time. And priorities. Nothing is 100% essential, everything is on a sliding scale of priorities. I'm sure people would much rather be making FMs next year instead of the year after if it meant the missed out on a smal list of things (that could be implemented later by any other person in the Thief community anyway).

 

Because as much as I DID enjoy and make full use of scouting orbs when I had them, I would be fine with not including them for the initial release since compared to the rope arrow etc. complex AI behaviour etc. the importance of the thing dwindles and would set back the release date.

[Darkness_Falls]

Hey Raven, personally I'm REALLY sorry the first 2 replies you got back were from the 2 people on our team that I would LEAST vote for a PR role... neither are known for their diplomacy, shall we say.

LOL, I mirror Domarius' thoughts here. If you've watched our group converse with the public, you'll notice we have a great knack for torquing people off. New Horizon does a pretty good job trying to do damage control, but he can't keep up all the time. It's a funny dynamic to watch, actually. I would recommend don't let a few peoples' personalities rub you the wrong and have that be your basis for trying The Dark Mod or not. We're not all anti-social, jabbing types. We do it to each other sometimes behind-the-scenes, but I agree, it doesn't do much good to berate the general public. We voted on a team name... Squabble Studios was one of the contenders. It didn't win, but it was a funny entry, anyways. And somewhat appropo.

[oDDity]

Then you should fix the Wikipedia entry, oDDity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audience_wave. According to that,

 

1970 isn't mentioned anywhere. Nor is there any mention saying it "started" in Mexico. I don't believe everything I read, but you should fix it if you know the facts.

 

I said it became famous at the world cup in mexico, and I was right, I'm not the sort of nerd to look up wikpedia before I say anything, I prefer to rely on my own knowledge, even if I did get the date wrong.

[sparhawk]

unfortunatly you don't get to decide if what you have created is "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels". That is the screaming demanding and unwashed users that decide in the end.

 

Apparently YOU don't understand that this is not the way how FREE projects work. You can not demand anything. You can say "I don't like it and therefore I wont use it." or you can say "It sucks that X is not included so I implement it myself" And that's where your options are ending (excluding variations where you find somebody else to do it for you).

 

-- I was't asking for the right to demand something, only advising that suggestions from front end users propably shouldn't be ignored if you plan to develope something that YOU want THEM to use. *If* you want me (or anyone else) to *use* your mods then there is the one basic demand that any user has... that it is worth their while.

 

That may be. But it still means not much. In the end it depends on how many user dis-/like it. If there are enough users who like it and use you will have a hard time getting your requests through.

 

---And yeah, it annoys the hell out of me in a gaming community when someone thinks that idea generation (sometimes in the realm of complete fantasy) is enough to warrant praise and can act as a war cry into action despite being unwilling to devote time to the realisation of the idea. Saying which idea generation is still important, as is listening to what people want if you *expect* them to use your product. But as oDDity said

 

You are right. Of course I don't mind if somebody has good ideas, but this would not be enough to give him a special status.

 

this is a totaly reasonably attitude to have, it would just be be nice to have "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels" and some people may think that climbing gloves are essential for this...

 

If enough people think this, there should be some people motivated enough to implement it. I certainly wont spend time on a feature that I don't even like.

 

but you guys don't, probably believing that end quality is more important than features (the same reason rope arrows and water were left out of Thief 3?), again totally justifible goals for your project....

 

There are some limitations on such a project. One is that we simply can not do anything. Another is that we simply dont WANT to do everything. And another one is, that we have to set priorities to determine what is absolutely needed and what not. Sound propagation is an absolute must, so we must implement it, if we ever want to be able to claim that we can create Thief style games. The same is true for the lightgem. Both are absolutely needed for the core. Without these two features, it will not be anything resembling Thiefstyle gameplay. Search algorithm for the AI falls in the same class. Now the next big thing, in terms of development time, is the fighting. Even though this is an important part to make it believable, it is in no way essential. You can create fully playable maps without letting the AI fight, because you can create an objective that says that you should not be spotted by the AI, which would completely remove the need for fighting. In fact some such maps even exist in the original games, so this would really be a thiefstyle gameplay, even though it would be quite severly limited. The climbing gloves are absolutely low on the list. They were not existant in the original games and were introduced much later. This already shows that real Thiefstyel gameply doesn't even come close to needing it, and therefore there is no need to implement them. If somebody says he absolutely must have them, then he can do it himself.

And yet another important restriction is motivation. This is a free project, and as such we have to motivate ourselve mostly on the fun it provides to create this mod. Praise from the audience is certainly an important factor, but it would never be enough to keep on going for several years. Of course I can only talk for myself, because for others it may be different. Now, considering that, how do you think I should moptivate myself to implement a feature, that I don't feel a need for, takes a lot of time to properly implement AND I don't even like it. Do you really think I would spend several months on such a feature for free? Of course there are other features which are also boring to do, but as long as they are neccessary for the overall gameplay, it helps to go through. Adding a feature that is pointless (in my opinion, not yours) will not give me ANY motivation at all, and consequently I will not do it, unless you pay me for it.

 

I *was* originally sceptical of the dark mod when finally the thief 3 editor was a reality

 

Not really surprising. After all, there are a lot of ambitous mods, with a lot of featuers that are promised and closed down after a short time. I think it is neccessary for a mod to be ambitious to get started with it, though.

 

, believing that it might split the community talent resources, and that we (as the whole thief community) should focus on T3D,

 

That is not really much of my concern. After all, I don't do this for the community, I do this for my own selfish reasons. I'm not so altrusitic that I would spend this much time on a project just for the benefit of others. I think that mods, that start with such an attitude as their primary motivation, will not last long in most cases.

 

but *now* it is obvious that the future of thief is the dark mod and I am pretty much 80% behind the project – swimming, rope arrows and potentially the whole doom 3 community too YEAH! Anyway, from what I can tell - cause this is Doom 3 we are talking about - all the missed extra stuff can easily be added after the first release – by humble FM creators if not the dev team…. Keep going guys, you rock!]]

 

Thx.

[sparhawk]

I think you have our priorities the wrong way around Raven. People don't go about creating mods primarily 'for

...

because that tends to keep the team together, but it's usually the last thing on my mind.

 

Maybe I'm just selfish and evil (or honest).

 

That's exactly my point.

[sparhawk]

I'm sure the community will have climbing gloves,

 

Not in my CVS branch.

[sparhawk]

I hope you'll trust me when I say it's not a true indication of the entire team as a whole.

 

Yeah, right. If Domarius had this job, he would promise everything and deliver - nothing.

 

Because as much as I DID enjoy and make full use of scouting orbs when I had them, I would be fine with not including them for the initial release since compared to the rope arrow etc. complex AI behaviour etc. the importance of the thing dwindles and would set back the release date.

 

I never used the orb myself, but I still would think it a good idea to include them. Let's see, because I don't think that it will be much of a problem to include it. After all, it is basically the same code the lightgem already uses.

[Darkness_Falls]

I said it became famous at the world cup in mexico, and I was right,

Well, in actuality, you made a wishy-washy statement and in doing so covered your bases. You said it did either originate in Mexico, or it at least became world famous there; so you're covering yourself for both instances. I was merely discounting the part of your statement where you said it did originate there. And the 1970 part, too. So you were wrong with 2 of 3 of your claims.

oDDity wrote: "It did (originate there), or at least became wolrd famous at the 1970 world cup in mexico,"

And I was playing stupid. I knew it didn't originate in Mexico even before looking it up on Wiki. I wanted to see what you thought. Though, I admit, I didn't know it was called The Mexican Wave in other countries, as here it is just called "The Wave." And rightfully so, I suppose, since it didn't originate in Mexico.

I'm not the sort of nerd to look up wikpedia before I say anything, I prefer to rely on my own knowledge, even if I did get the date wrong.

So you'd rather have a religious-like belief in your own recollection of things than actual facts. That's cool.

 

I'm a geek, not a nerd. Geeks choose to be nerdy. Nerds don't have a choice.

[Domarius]

Yeah, right. If Domarius had this job, he would promise everything and deliver - nothing.

Observational humour has to be at least PARTIALLY based on reality for it to be funny.

[sparhawk]

Promsing to much results usually in not coming up with anything because you easily burn out.

[Macsen]

I don't have that problem because I promise nothing and do nothing.