Scouting Orb, Anyone?

[Subjective Effect]

I loved stacking and exploring. You didn't need the orb though.

[Darkness_Falls]

I liked the orb and speed potion. I didn't use them very much, but they were neat to have. Chucking an orb near a guard and watching him walk by without noticing was sometimes fun. Or to plan your route, to know if you need to go through a certain area, or to see if there are possibly other routes to get where you're wanting to get. I guess I just accept them as part of the world more than you all do. If I have to accept zombies, ghosts, robots, alarm systems, magicians and potions, then I see now harm in accepting orbs, too. It's just a part of the world they created. T3 went overboard -- oil slicks, arrow light trails and blue nebulous clouds?? I will not accept these. T1/2 set the stage.

 

Speed potions helped me get away quicker if heard, or to combine w/ invisiblity to get through an otherwise lame area. Since it's integrated into the gameplay... built as part of the game, I derive more satisfaction out of using the tools than 'noclip.' Noclip is not the same.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

A tiny joking post showcasing a new army gadget managed to ignite so many emotions.

I think T1 set the stage, and T2's robots, cameras, and especially the orb were too much. T3 I haven't seen yet.

Unlike Oddity, I don't play it for the hardcore stealth, but for the immersion, atmosphere, romantic setting, and the buildings, objects that recreate some things from the past. Even the magic arrows in T1 were too much for me. I prefer broadheads, arrows with sacks of water, arrows with an explosive mixture and oiled cloth, arrows with pouches of sawdust, etc.

 

It's like a gamer's Mexican wave.

 

What's a Mexican wave?

 

You don't need some ridiculous out of place high tech gear like a remote broadcasting camera and reception equiment.

Exactly.

[oDDity]

Since you made no indication whatsoever you were jkoing, what did you expect. We're not mind readers.

A mexican wave is what crowds of spectators do at sporting events when they get bored.

[Maximius]

Crat: A tiny joking post showcasing a new army gadget managed to ignite so many emotions.

 

Check out the rope arrow threads.........

 

Crat:T3 I haven't seen yet.

 

Breathe a sigh of relief.

 

Crat: Unlike Oddity, I don't play it for the hardcore stealth, but for the immersion, atmosphere, romantic setting, and the buildings, objects that recreate some things from the past. Even the magic arrows in T1 were too much for me. I prefer broadheads, arrows with sacks of water, arrows with an explosive mixture and oiled cloth, arrows with pouches of sawdust, etc.

 

I had an idea once that you may like. It was for a blackjack, or dum dum, arrow with a shot filled leather tip. If you hit the AI in the head, its a KO. If you missed, he gets a bruise and comes ahunting for you.

[Darkness_Falls]

A 'KO arrow.' I kinda like that!

 

A Mexican Wave? I've never heard of it either, but if it's like the rolling arm-raised-wave I see go around stadiums, I'm not so sure it originated in Mexico, so I don't know why it would be called that.

[Springheel]

arrows with sacks of water, arrows with an explosive mixture and oiled cloth, arrows with pouches of sawdust, etc.

 

You'll probably like our arrows then.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

I probably will.

[Domarius]

If we included speed potions it would be because they were a good gameplay mechanic and no other reason.

 

"Helping people break maps" should not be a reason to include anything - because that's backwards reasoning.

 

The activity of breaking maps is the player using the normal game mechanics to do something outside of what the developers expected, which will happen anyway.

[sparhawk]

Speed potions are not a tool to break maps. Or do you think LGS included them because they wanted players to break maps?

[Ishtvan]

I think someone specifically said earlier "Speed potions should be in so you can [break the maps]," and I think that's what the argument was in response to.

[Domarius]

Correct.

[oDDity]

A 'KO arrow.' I kinda like that!

 

A Mexican Wave? I've never heard of it either, but if it's like the rolling arm-raised-wave I see go around stadiums, I'm not so sure it originated in Mexico, so I don't know why it would be called that.

 

It did, or at least became wolrd famous at the 1970 world cup in mexico, but you north americans, being shit at any sport that anyone else in the world actually plays, wouldn't know that. You probably even have o ask which sport is played at the world cup.

[bob_arctor]

"Haht podaydo?"

 

Well I still think you should put in something to see round corners. I don't see why you can't have the orb in the FM kit, it's not like people have to use it.

The mirror idea is probably more fiddly, if anything.

[oDDity]

Yeah, why not use make it an invisible hovering scouting orb that you can remote control to anywhere in the level.

[Mr Retarded]

If your main priority is to make a toolset, shouldn't you include everything you can? By removing a pirticular tool, you remove a possible option for a mapper to expand their level...

 

Make the orb and let the mapper choose wether it is available in the map or not.

[Domarius]

Yeah, why not use make it an invisible hovering scouting orb that you can remote control to anywhere in the level.

Hehehe - yeah I think I used that analogy to describe the 3rd person view way back when it was first announced it would be in the game.

 

If your main priority is to make a toolset, shouldn't you include everything you can? By removing a pirticular tool, you remove a possible option for a mapper to expand their level...

 

Make the orb and let the mapper choose wether it is available in the map or not.

Unfortunatley we can't simply include everything conceivable - the toolset would never get done. We need to only select the most core features and get them out there so people can start making maps. I consider the scouting orb optional, personally. It wasn't available much in OMs and especially FMs, and in Thief 3, while I missed it, I got on fine without it. Rope arrows, flash bombs, on the other hand...

[sparhawk]

If your main priority is to make a toolset, shouldn't you include everything you can? By removing a pirticular tool, you remove a possible option for a mapper to expand their level...

 

Make the orb and let the mapper choose wether it is available in the map or not.

 

That were true for all the important stuff. The orb is not important at all. You can play fine without it. Obviously we have to priotize what we can do, and optional stuff is very low on the list. Also, once we release it, other people can pick it up and include whatever they want.

[Maximius]

It did, or at least became wolrd famous at the 1970 world cup in mexico, but you north americans, being shit at any sport that anyone else in the world actually plays, wouldn't know that. You probably even have o ask which sport is played at the world cup.

 

 

Thats an easy one, the World Cup is a beer guzzling competition originated by the Viking invaders who landed in Thailand in 1066 and who founded the Budweiser Brewing Colony. After inventing algebra, the the slingshot, and polka dancing, they climbed aboard their outrigger canoes and sailed off into the Western seas, lost to recorded history. All we have left of their proud Viking heritage are the aforementioned inventions and the World Cup, a forty gallon beer stein carved from the skull of a mastodon.

 

Today professional alcoholics from around the world meet in honorable competition to see who can drain the mighty World Cup in one pull; current world champions are the Inuit peoples of Northern Liberia. Their victory was marred by the death of their champion, Uuguluk, who finished the Cup in 25 seconds but then belched so violently that his esophagus flew across the stadium and struck a Bulgarian cheerleading squad, wounding one member.

[Raven]

Hmm, see it was this sort of attitude that confused me about the dark mod to start with...

 

At first I considered the "professional" approach to the mod a bit OTT, but I think i get it now. I hope that it works for the mod but I also hope that the inner workings of the team are a bit less... stalwart(?). After reading these forums and ttlg it seems somebody must be monopolising the fun factor, if the joy is not shared around then people will burn out and not feel the love of the project enough to pull through the long development journey you guys have ahead of you. I am not saying that the love isn't shared internally, but the PR machine seems kinda cold, all I'm saying is that I hope it isn't indicative of the inner workings. As I said, I think I understand the professional approach *and* the cautious PR management but don't take yourselves too seriously to the point you sound arrogant; a great portfolio or a great person to work with, who would you hire?

 

So I get the uber professional approach but I am still concerned about what you guys see as the final result of this project. There is talk about priorities, which I also understand, you have to stay on task, but is this going to turn out as a toolset that you guys are really proud to show off; an excellent Doom 3 mod showing of your leet modding skills, or, a really cool "toolset" that can create great thief levels with? If you are aiming to create a great toolset for 21st century thief levels, then who are you to say that scouting orbs, slowfall speed inv potions aren't essential thief? Apparently LGS thought they were and dismissing them off hand seems kind of arrogant.

 

I know this is a fairly minor item on the big scale of things, but in the end I wonder what sort of development beliefs lie in motivation of the project. Does this mod say;

 

"Look at me, look at me, pleeeeaaase use me, I am a great toolset, and this is going to rock. You are going to have so much fun --- HEY Mister! Yeah, you with a precious small amount of spare time. Devote it to meeeee, cause the pay off? MASSIVE!"

 

Or

 

"Look bud, you are lucky to have this. i am clever, i am great and I've sweated blood and tears to be so - you are so privileged to be using me, you just don't have a clue."

 

I know that this may sound very harsh, but this is why the love of the project (and any project/map/hack/mod/... non-commercial game) has to be there, self sufficient, within the team. Who are you doing this for? no really it is a serious question. I know your time is precious, but IMHO mine is more so, so why should I give a care about this project if it is only your pet bunny and yous can't even be bothered to put in scouting orbs. This is exactly the same problem level editors have, "Who am i making this map for? Why should someone even care to download the map and waste their precious time on it? I should be thankfull that they spent time playing my humble little map". If you can brush these ideas off with the belief that you are self sufficient and you don't have to win over anyone else's attention then good luck! but a little friendliness and flexibility to outside ideas and influences will go a long way to getting people to cheer on your cause.

 

--now aren't you gratefull i took the effort and time to register and rant

Edited March 23, 2006 by Raven

[oDDity]

We're not going to put in everything that everyone thinks should be in there, we have to decide that for ourselves.

I'm sure there are people who really like the TDS climbing gloves and think they should be in this game too

This is not a copy of Thief, and we're under no obligation to include every single item and tool from those games.

 

In the end it comes down to our personal tastes, because the motivation to work for days or weeks on something you really don't think should be in the game and really dont' want to be working on, is very, very low, and a mod team like this runs entirely on motivation.

[sparhawk]

If you are aiming to create a great toolset for 21st century thief levels, then who are you to say that scouting orbs, slowfall speed inv potions aren't essential thief? Apparently LGS thought they were and dismissing them off hand seems kind of arrogant.

 

Well, that question, who we are to determine this, is quite simply answered. We are the creators of The Dark Mod. We decide what goes in and what not. We are doing the work, and therefore we decide where we need and want to spend time on. Apparently you don't understand how a free project works. It's not as if we are getting payed for and the one who pays is in command. We have to make sure that it will be finished and that, first and foremost, WE are satisfied with it.

 

I know this is a fairly minor item on the big scale of things, but in the end I wonder what sort of development beliefs lie in motivation of the project. Does this mod say;

 

Who are you doing this for? no really it is a serious question. I know your time is precious, but IMHO mine is more so, so why should I give a care about this project if it is only your pet bunny and yous can't even be bothered to put in scouting orbs.

 

LOL! You sound as if you had any rights to demand something. You have not. You can join anytime and create it yourself, if you think it so important, but you have no right at all to demand any asset or tool to be in- or excluded as long as you are not doing any work. You can ask us if we can or want to do it, and if it is a good idea, we may consider it for inclusion, but as long as you are not doing anything yourself you have to be satisfied with what you get, or motivate somebody to do it for you. That's how free projects work.

 

You remind me a lot of the people you often can find on mod and game developer forums. "I have this REALLY GREAT IDEA and I'm looking for people who can do it. What? What do you mean, what can I do??? I had this REALLY GREAT IDEA and this should be enough for you to accept me as your project leader and make all the real work the next four years! Geez, that lousy guy really expected of me to put some additional work into this mod, after spending at least one hour to come up with this REALLY GREAT IDEA"

 

--now aren't you gratefull i took the effort and time to register and rant

 

Yes, we are gratefull beyond believe. People like this can be found by the dozen, on any forum.

 

Why should I use the search button? *I* just registered and had this question.

Why should I bother to read the FAQ? *I* just registered and expect somebody to answer my question NOW!

Why should I wait for three hours before I bump my thread? *I* just registered and expect that others answer my question as soon as I sent it, after all *I* need the answer!!!

...

[Raven]

well, that definately addresses my concerns... and apparently I am justified in them.

 

Well, that question, who we are to determine this, is quite simply answered. We are the creators of The Dark Mod....... Apparently you don't understand how a free project works.

unfortunatly you don't get to decide if what you have created is "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels". That is the screaming demanding and unwashed users that decide in the end.

 

LOL! You sound as if you had any rights to demand something. You have not.

-- I was't asking for the right to demand something, only advising that suggestions from front end users propably shouldn't be ignored if you plan to develope something that YOU want THEM to use. *If* you want me (or anyone else) to *use* your mods then there is the one basic demand that any user has... that it is worth their while.

 

---And yeah, it annoys the hell out of me in a gaming community when someone thinks that idea generation (sometimes in the realm of complete fantasy) is enough to warrant praise and can act as a war cry into action despite being unwilling to devote time to the realisation of the idea. Saying which idea generation is still important, as is listening to what people want if you *expect* them to use your product. But as oDDity said

 

We're not going to put in everything that everyone thinks should be in there, we have to decide that for ourselves.

I'm sure there are people who really like the TDS climbing gloves and think they should be in this game too

This is not a copy of Thief, and we're under no obligation to include every single item and tool from those games.

this is a totaly reasonably attitude to have, it would just be be nice to have "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels" and some people may think that climbing gloves are essential for this... but you guys don't, probably believing that end quality is more important than features (the same reason rope arrows and water were left out of Thief 3?), again totally justifible goals for your project.... and goodluck to you (when i develop skills I might see if i can help you along... maybe... if I am convinced of the merits of the project, like i might d/l the mod eventually, again if I am convinced of it's merits.)

 

---And finally Ermmm, I know how to use a forum! My glib end comment was eluding to the idea that I have shown interest in your mod, thus acting as an external verification of the justication of the external merits of its exisiance and the time you have spent upon it.

 

 

[[please note that this post is more about design motivation and philosophy behind making/using mods and creating/playing fan created content in general: - I *was* originally sceptical of the dark mod when finally the thief 3 editor was a reality, believing that it might split the community talent resources, and that we (as the whole thief community) should focus on T3D, but *now* it is obvious that the future of thief is the dark mod and I am pretty much 80% behind the project – swimming, rope arrows and potentially the whole doom 3 community too YEAH! Anyway, from what I can tell - cause this is Doom 3 we are talking about - all the missed extra stuff can easily be added after the first release – by humble FM creators if not the dev team…. Keep going guys, you rock!]]

[Macsen]

I think you have our priorities the wrong way around Raven. People don't go about creating mods primarily 'for the community' (if so I wouldn't bother, as most people in the community appear to be either grumpy gits or lame brained little twerps). People create mods because the concept excites them, they are engrossed by their work. If you have a big ego to satisfy it's possible you would work on a mod so that the fan community worships you. But no one is going to work on a mod for free just to satisfy other people. I'm only speaking for myself, of course, but while working on the Hammerite Imperium project I have not once thought 'I shall selflessly work on something I hate for the good of the community', instead I just like to do some creative work and have the satisfaction of seeing it come to fruitation. Of course public support of the project is important because that tends to keep the team together, but it's usually the last thing on my mind.

 

Maybe I'm just selfish and evil (or honest).

[Mark]

I don't think that scouting orbs were cheap or "cheaty" per se. Actually, I think the basic idea about them was to allow the map designers greater freedom, in that they didn't necessarily have to make a special shadowy nook in every room or area for the player to observe the layout, guard patterns, etc. At any rate, I rarely found them useful.