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Yes, but if they drop it in-game, they often can pick it back up again if they find that they need it. If they drop it in the loading screen, there's not even a chance of that.

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We already discussed this. If the author prevents a player from dropping a specific item, he can just as well write into the instructions "Don't drop it, you will need it" thus giving aways some info prematurely.

And that's exactly why the ability to drop core tools, either pre-mission or in the mission, is a bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

 

If the sword and blackjack could only be accessed by cycling through all your inventory items, there might be an advantage to dropping them.

 

If there was limited inventory space, there might be an advantage to dropping them.

 

But both of the above conditions are false, so there is literally ZERO advantage to dropping them. It is the very definition of a useless option.

 

Hey, I want to roleplay a thief who only walks on one foot. Give me a walk-on-one-foot key!

Edited by ZylonBane

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I do beleive we should have the interface to drop core tools (useful for getting through checkpoints where you're searched for weapons). It's just that it should be possible for the mapper to disable that interface for specific items on the loading screen.

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oh ffs guys...

 

Won't all the items be .def files anyway Spar? thus you could set them for yourself to be undroppable?

 

Hell, you could open up the map, and set the items to be undroppable yourself, and because it only affects entities, not brushes, you don't even have to recompile it.

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Yeah the usefulness of dropping core weapons would be getting past checkpoints in some specific undercover cases, or maybe you want to risk throwing your sword to create a very loud distraction or to solve some puzzle, who knows.

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I do beleive we should have the interface to drop core tools (useful for getting through checkpoints where you're searched for weapons). It's just that it should be possible for the mapper to disable that interface for specific items on the loading screen.

 

Why should the mapper have any saying in this? It is the players decision to do this, not the mappers.


Gerhard

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Why should the mapper have any saying in this? It is the players decision to do this, not the mappers.

Please tell us you're just pretending to be dumb.

 

There are missions, even in the Thief OMs, that REQUIRE the core equipment. The player doesn't know this in advance. The player shouldn't have to know this in advance, because only a stupid and/or suicidal thief would intentionally embark on a job unprepared for the unexpected.

 

This end result of this design flaw is that mission designers won't even be able to put in something as basic as a slashable banner and assume that the player will be able to get through it. Or more realistically, word will get out that the ability to start without a sword and blackjack is a silly feature pushed through by a borderline insane member of the team and should just be ignored.

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Please tell us you're just pretending to be dumb.

 

There are missions, even in the Thief OMs, that REQUIRE the core equipment. The player doesn't know this in advance. The player shouldn't have to know this in advance, because only a stupid and/or suicidal thief would intentionally embark on a job unprepared for the unexpected.

 

This end result of this design flaw is that mission designers won't even be able to put in something as basic as a slashable banner and assume that the player will be able to get through it. Or more realistically, word will get out that the ability to start without a sword and blackjack is a silly feature pushed through by a borderline insane member of the team and should just be ignored.

 

If we have time to code the systems like we want to, this won't be a problem, because they'll be able to pick up any sword or knife lying around and slash a banner. It was "revealed" in another thread that, if time allows, we plan to allow the player to pick up and wield various weapons with a generic slash attack animation. It will be slow and clumsy because the character isn't trained with those weapons, but it will be enough to soundly defeat a banner. We also hope to do something similar for blunt objects and KO'ing.

 

I don't think we need to baby the player so much that they get their core weapons superglued to their hands. It's common sense that you might need them, so if you do drop them, put them somewhere you can find them again. Even if they do somehow manage to throw them somewhere they can't get to, they can use other weapons to kill and KO with that improvised weapon system.

[EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about dropping them ingame. IMO, if you drop them in the mission equipment menu, they should be placed in a package at your feet or something when you start the mission, so that you can always reverse that decision.]

 

In T1/2 when there was a puzzle requiring a certain arrow type, LGS designers always left an arrow of that type somewhere near the puzzle. Nothing was stopping the player from firing that and every other arrow of that type into a wall and wasting it, making the puzzle unsolvable. LGS didn't see fit to baby them and put in some pop-up screen like "This is your last fire arrow, and you need fire arrows to light the torches to get the talisman. Are you sure? <Yes/No>" Even TDS didn't stoop that low, since they had the pagan ritual puzzle that also required specific arrows (although those arrows may have respawned, I forget).

 

I think the same logic applies to puzzles/objectives requiring the blackjack or sword. The mapper can leave an improvised weapon around nearby if they want, or the player can use some common sense and not throw their blackjack into a bottomless pit if there is an objective to kidnap someone.

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There are missions, even in the Thief OMs, that REQUIRE the core equipment. The player doesn't know this in advance. The player shouldn't have to know this in advance, because only a stupid and/or suicidal thief would intentionally embark on a job unprepared for the unexpected.

 

Pleasee tell me that you are not as stupid as you make yourself an idiot here. If the mapper can force the player to NOT drop any equipment, then he already knows that this will be important, so he already has advanced knowledge. The mapper should have no saying in this at all. Either the player CAN drop core equipment, then he should always be able to do it, or he should NOT be able to do this, then he also should NEVER be able to do this. As soon as the mapper can switch this, he can just as well write it in the instructions.

 

This end result of this design flaw is that mission designers won't even be able to put in something as basic as a slashable banner and assume that the player will be able to get through it.

 

Bad luck. The player doesn't have to drop his items. If he does, then it's his problem. Would this also mean that the mapper is not allowed to make a cliff without railing, because the player could fall down to his death, and thus never complete the mission?


Gerhard

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Bad luck. The player doesn't have to drop his items. If he does, then it's his problem. Would this also mean that the mapper is not allowed to make a cliff without railing, because the player could fall down to his death, and thus never complete the mission?

 

I don't think there's any need for us to go on the defensive for something so simple. I agree with you to a point Spar, but I also have to agree with ZB's assertion that the FM author should be able to restrict dropping of tools that are specifically needed to balance the level.

 

Dropping them ingame however, is a completely different matter and the FM author doesn't need to have control over that at all really, as the player can sneak back and pick up his tools again at a later time. If the player chooses to drop all weapons at the beginning of the mission, that's absolutely fine...at least then, if they get halfway through a mission and realize that they actually needed that single fire arrow they had left, they can just retrace their steps and re-equip.

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As was already mentioned by Ishtvan, if the player drops all his equipment and is absuloteuly needed, then the mapper should make sure that there are at least as many items as are required, to be found in the map. There is absolutely no need to make this an authors decision at this point.


Gerhard

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Dropping them ingame however, is a completely different matter and the FM author doesn't need to have control over that at all really, as the player can sneak back and pick up his tools again at a later time. If the player chooses to drop all weapons at the beginning of the mission, that's absolutely fine...at least then, if they get halfway through a mission and realize that they actually needed that single fire arrow they had left, they can just retrace their steps and re-equip.

 

That's why I think the problem would be solved by just having the "drop at mission start screen" generate a package at your feet when you spawn containing the stuff you choose to drop. We might have to cheat a bit and make this particular package not suspicious to the AI, since we are forcing the player to put it there essentially and they might spawn in a place that is patrolled through later.

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Yeah that sounds fine intially... I don't know whether that's an problem to RPing ghosters though.... It might be a bit silly to have this bag lying about. Oddity would rather the equipment disappeared for good. You could always restart a mission if you were stupid enough to throw away too much though. It's only probably half an hour of play.

 

I'm thinking more in terms of arrows. As Spar says any puzzle involving arrows should have an arrow of the sort needed lying about.

 

Hence if I want to drop my fire arrows and never see them again because I want to be right stealthy and not have to resort to that, could I?

 

I don't know about blackjack and sword though. That's a bit extreme, to bin those.

 

Maybe you could have a buying screen where you could sell arrows and blackjacks and swords and stuff? And buy other things?

 

Maybe you could even have it as a money challenge: who can complete the mission with the least value equipment possible.

 

I'm torn myself, don't know what'd be best. Just thinking of ideas. I'm not a developer though so I don't have to make hard decisions.

Edited by bob_arctor

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LGS didn't see fit to baby them and put in some pop-up screen like "This is your last fire arrow, and you need fire arrows to light the torches to get the talisman. Are you sure? <Yes/No>"

They did, however, recognize this as a potential problem -- which is exactly why Thief Gold introduced the Fire Shadow.

 

If the mapper can force the player to NOT drop any equipment, then he already knows that this will be important, so he already has advanced knowledge.
Thank you. You have just summed up exactly why even the existence of the ability to discard core equipment is a bad idea. Is anybody honestly arguing that it doesn't cause more problems than it solves? In fact... what problems does it solve? Other than satisfying Oddity's fanatic fetish for "thieving naked", is there any actual reason for this feature?

 

Look, when an FM author is designing a mission, they have to make certain basic assumptions about what the player can do. It is assumed that the player can run, walk, jump, duck, pick things up, set things down, mantle, frob, climb ropes, and knock out AIs and use a sword.

 

If you make those last two abilities optional, it just makes life for FM authors harder. Sure, if a mission requires a sword or blackjack the author could place them somewhere in a mission, but that's just as bad as placing a stack of health potions before a tough battle. It says, "HEY LOOK! YOU'LL NEED THIS!". It's far better to make the core equipment something that's just "there", neither confirming nor denying whether any particular mission will need them.

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Thank you. You have just summed up exactly why even the existence of the ability to discard core equipment is a bad idea. Is anybody honestly arguing that it doesn't cause more problems than it solves? In fact... what problems does it solve? Other than satisfying Oddity's fanatic fetish for "thieving naked", is there any actual reason for this feature?

 

LOL! So we are on the same side anyway, because I consider this a also very useless feature.


Gerhard

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Thank you. You have just summed up exactly why even the existence of the ability to discard core equipment is a bad idea. Is anybody honestly arguing that it doesn't cause more problems than it solves? In fact... what problems does it solve? Other than satisfying Oddity's fanatic fetish for "thieving naked", is there any actual reason for this feature?

Yes there is. The reason is to give players full responsibility for their actions, whether good, bad, exciting or frustrating. I hate modern games and the way they are zoned in on only the 'fun' parts.

I remember the old Everquest when it first started, compare that to modern MMO's and it's a world of difference, yet I liked the do-it-yourself, no-frills, 'you mess up you take the consequences like a man - ignorance is not an excuse' old Everquest far more. Yes, you could lose all the equipment that you'd sepnt a month working for and have to start again ( it happened twice to me) no, there weren't any maps or pointers telling you where to go, you have to work it out for yourself, you had to just your common sense and your wits, you were never fed anything, it was very much a survival course where you're dropped into the wilderness with nothing but a pocket knife and a compass.

I beleive that the frustrating and other 'unenjoyable' parts of games are as relevant and important a part of the whole experience than what some would call 'fun stuff', and therefore trying to make a concentrated mixture of only fun parts does not appeal to me. This is the direction modern games are taking, and it's why I don't play them any more.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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Forcing the author to give away plotdetails, even if they are so small, is not an enhancement. Quite on the contrary, considering your view, it can be argued, that the inclusion of this feature would make the game easier because you know already more than you would know if you had to load the map and investigate yourself.


Gerhard

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He wouldn't be forced to give away plot details with my rules, there would be no undroppable items, period.

It's the responsibility of the author to provde in-game whatever is essential for the completion of his misison, he should not take for granted that the player has definitely got a certian item with him.

I know you're going to say it's not realistic to have a blackjack lying around on a mission, but I don't see why not, since all sorts of other items are to be found on many THief misisons, fire arrows, noisemakers, scouting orbs, you name it - in fact, the only thing I've never seen lying around in a mission is the blackjack.

Now, if you find a blackjack in a mission, decide to pick it up and toss it off a cliff, then that's you're problem, it should not be made undroppable.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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That at least makes sense. So authors would have to be aware, that a player could have dropped an item that he may need for completion and should provide for it.But nevertheless it still doesn't make sense to allow teh authro determine wether this feature is active or not. In this case it would be always active with no way of switching it off. People are not forced to use it anyway.


Gerhard

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OF course it should always be active. There is no need or an on/off switch. All iems can be dropped by the player wihtout exception, and the player does not have to take any item at the loading screen.

The author provides any item that is needed during the mission, be it a key, a sword or a zombie's shrivled testicles.

THe player is not forced to pick these items up and should therefore not be forced to keep them once he has picked them up.

Players will soon get the idea that if they do find something in a mission, then it might well be a mission-critical item, so they should be careful what they do with it.

We do not have to treat them like imbeciles.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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That is ok for me. My major point was that the author should have any saying in this, which I didn't like and consider a bad design if he is allowed to do such things.


Gerhard

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OF course it should always be active. There is no need or an on/off switch. All iems can be dropped by the player wihtout exception

Wow, it just gets better and better. Now you're advocating that TDM should allow discarding quest items?

 

Locking quest items into the inventory is an exceptionally GOOD thing, because it saves the player from accidentally and irrevocably screwing an entire mission due to losing something important.

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