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Hey, jerboa, I just committed your model to our SVN repository. Good work so far, the files were well prepared for upload.


One thing I changed: I moved the origin of the model to the bottom center, so that the model is grid-aligned in DarkRadiant. (Before my change the origin was right in the middle of the geometry.)




I'll look into the gallow next.

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The gallows models, the noose and the dungeon cross are now on SVN too, here are the screenshots:


guillotine.jpg gallows.jpg dungeon_cross.jpg


The poly counts are:


guillotine: 1927 polys

dungeon cross: 1111 polys

gallows trapdoor: 153 polys

gallows lever: 117

gallows: 805 polys

noose: 1945 polys


My only gripe is that the noose model is quite hi-poly for its size, as you handled each "bump" of the rope with actual polygons. This could be reduced by a fair amount by using a strong normalmap like our rope arrow does, then you can get rid of all the little polygons.


Overall: good work, thanks for these contributions, and I'm looking forward to more work from you! :)


The next logical step would be that you handle the upload of your upcoming model to SVN yourself. I can assist you with the details.

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Yes, I would like to know the details for setting up SVN for uploads. I sent a desired password and username to sparhawk.


Also, I would like to use this little space for crits on my models during developement stages.

I dont want to take up too much of yalls time. But, info inputs help me out alot.

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Let me know as soon as you have your SVN credentials, I can point you to the relevant threads and guide you through downloading the mod and getting things into SVN.


Generally there are some articles on our wiki, just type "SVN" in the text box on the left.

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Huh. I didn't realise until looking in a Google Image Search just now that pan pipes sometimes didn't have their pipes strictly in order of size. Learn something new every day... :)


Looking good overall, though a few of those textures on the bits of cloth down the bottom look quite stretched. e.g. The yellowish one, lower-left. And that green/red texture is craaaa-zyyy. :D May I suggest some green cloth instead of red, so it doesn't smack one in the eye quite so much? As an additional skin perhaps.


Looks like you've been pretty conservative with the polygons, which is good, especially for an object this (small) size. How many polys/tris does it have, out of interest?

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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890 polys when triangulated. 384 when in quads.

890 seems a little high for such a small object but isn't bad I guess, especially as I can't imagine there'll be more than 1 or 2 in a scene.


(FYI, the triangulated count is the one we're interested in, since it's the one that counts for performance reasons.)


I'll play with the textures abit more. Do you like them more evenly stepped down in size or irregular? Here is a picture I went by.

I'm not really fussed, I was just a bit surprised to learn that they weren't always in strict order. I guess it's more visually interesting if they're irregular. Do whichever you like. (Or both, and share textures, if you're really keen. :) )

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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I take it the pipes will be some sort of loot?



They look good by the way






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When I get SVN fully set up I'll upload a version02 of the dungeon cross w/16 sided shackles instead of 8 and I'll swap out the metal for a grittier one.


Also, I'll do a slight fix on the noose. That should drop the count abit.


Here are some pan_pipes version02. Played w/the textures abit to reduce skews.







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I like the pipes, cool that you have so many skins.

I actually liked the first model with different pipes better, thought it had mo flava.


Anyway, this is a perfect time to point out a few things that are critical. We touched on them earlier but someone didn't want you to get confused. I think you're beyond that.


Pivot points : This is very critical on some items. Above Greebo moved the pivot to the bottom of the gullotine. That's fine and for stationary objects it's fine, although there's really no problem leaving it close to center either. For moveable items like the pipes the pivot needs to be as close to center of mass as possible. That's because when it's dropped or hit it will spin on center instead of an off center wobble.

The problem this can lead to is that it's sides won't hit a grid line. You should make a set of cubes in the editor. make them 1x1 on the grid, change the grid size one smaller, make a 1x1 box on grid. Do 5 or 6 of them. Export as an obj and import that into your 3d program. Set up your grid units so these boxes are all on grid lines.

Now scale your pipes model so that it hits the closest grid line on every plane (it can be a really small grid line), but it needs to be on a grid line.

Now it can be placed in the editor and it will be flush to a grid line, so if you set it on a table it won't be an inch in the air or an inch into the table, it'll be right on top.


Collision Mesh : Make a cube the size of your pipes. Take 2 verts and pull them down to match the angle of the pipes. apply material tdm_collision_wood to it and it'll sound like wood when dropped/hit. It'll also bounce around depending on wieght, etc... declared in the .def file (deffinition file that makes it moveable, etc...)

Without the collision model it won't be a moveable. It's way too complex for that and if you try D3 will crash.

Export the collision model WITH the pipes model.

One problem solved, the complex mesh can now be moved without serious physics issues. (instead of 890 it is now 12 -there is a max of around 16 polys (variable) and 32 edges)



Shadow Mesh : 890 polys. That's alot of shadow calculations. That's gonna kill the performance in that area (when you count alot of other shadows from other things). It's also gonna kill performance as it's thrown and bounces around. You can either use a copy of the collision mesh (which would be fine IMO) and apply material shadow to it. (or shadow2 which I believe doesn't cast shadows on itself, probably best in the case of simple items like this).

Export this also with your pipes model and collision mesh.

Issue 2 solved: too many uneeded shadow casting polys sucking performance. (instead of 890 it is now 12)


If you do those last 2 things on your models the polycount can be quite high and literally have no effect on performance. Without them models are virtually worthless if we want any decent performance.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Just one comment, collision models can also reside in extra files and can be made with DarkRadiant, so it is okay if your model doesn't include one - somebody else can do them, even without any 3D modelling program or experience.


But the simplified shadow model needs to be done by you :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)


"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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When I make a collision and shadow model. Do I need to make them transparent or does that get figured in the mtr?


I'll have to adjust the pivot point by eye/hand. Well, let me double check that I might have an easy button for it.


"material tdm_collision_wood" I'll need an example for copy and paste on this one.

Ingame shots. I believe I have it scaled properly.




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Looks good Jerboa, and I like the skin variety. Are you actually setting these up in a .skin file somewhere?


One thing--it doesn't look like you have smoothing turned on. The pipes have discernable edges.


890 polies is definitely quite high for something this size. You'll definitely need to make a simplified shadowmesh if it stays that high...luckily for a model like this you could get away with just making a simplified trianglular block. Assign the surface of the shadowmesh the textures/common/shadow shader, and make sure the shadowmesh does not stick out of the visible mesh anywhere. I think there might be some more info on the wiki.



I take it the pipes will be some sort of loot?


I'm not sure why they'd be loot. Pan pipes are a pretty common instrument and a lot less expensive to make than a harp or string base.

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When I make a collision and shadow model. Do I need to make them transparent or does that get figured in the mtr?

The shaders Baddcog mentioned (textures/common/shadow and tdm_collision_wood) are not visible in-game. The engine will use these surfaces to generate the shadow or collision data, but these won't be rendered.


"material tdm_collision_wood" I'll need an example for copy and paste on this one.

If you want to have a look how it's done, open one of the existing models in Lightwave, you should see there is a second (and third) mesh within that file, carrying the texture "textures/common/shadow". This is probably the easiest way to see how this step should look like.

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Yeah, a collision mesh can be made in game by someone else.


But why? It only takes half a minute, it makes it ready to go, and nobody else will have to deal with that later.


I can see them being a special item (objective) in a pagan FM, or just simple items in alot of areas. But like Spring said probably not loot per se.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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You save them as part of the same model. They just use a different surface shader: textures/common/shadow for the shadowmesh and tdm_collision_wood for the collision mesh. You don't have to make those shaders; they already exist.


You can see in the example below, the greyish shape is the collision mesh, the yellow is the actual candlestick mesh (the only one which will be visible in game) and the black inside is the simplified shadowmesh.


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Looks like your collision mesh is not set to the right surface. Are you sure it is tdm_collision_wood?


Are there any console errors?

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I agree with Spring, your collision material just isn't correct.


I name my collision meshes 'coll' usually, and shadows 'shadow'. That just helps me in 3d to be able to hide by name and know what they are for.


Also you can edit .ase files with notepad so it helps me figure out which submeshes need those textures. From what I understand they have to be set in Lightwave.


I'd be weary of using a default collision bounding box. Most likely it is just a cube and your object won't have proper physics as it's not really cube shaped.


You can see it in the model viewer in DR, you can also toggle shadow and collision meshes off and on so you can see the object inside.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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