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#1 Arumakani

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 08:17 AM

Hi guys. I'm new here, but am a big fan of stealth games. In particular Thief and Splinter Cell. I'm playing Oblivion on the 360 at the moment and am using the first person view. It is immersive, it was good in Thief DS aswell. However I sort of prefer the 3rd person after playing DS with it aswell and also Splinter Cell. There is a code you can put into the Doom3 PC game that will give a 3rd person view, I was wondering whether the dark mod will support this, and is there anyway to add this in if not? I know you said in your questions section that there would not be, but..
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#2 ZylonBane

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 08:25 AM

However I sort of prefer the 3rd person after playing DS

I think we can safely attribute this to the fact that TDS' first-person mode sucks.

#3 New Horizon

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 08:29 AM

Hi guys. I'm new here, but am a big fan of stealth games. In particular Thief and Splinter Cell. I'm playing Oblivion on the 360 at the moment and am using the first person view. It is immersive, it was good in Thief DS aswell. However I sort of prefer the 3rd person after playing DS with it aswell and also Splinter Cell. There is a code you can put into the Doom3 PC game that will give a 3rd person view, I was wondering whether the dark mod will support this, and is there anyway to add this in if not? I know you said in your questions section that there would not be, but..


We aren't supporting 3rd person as a playable option. That being said, you can still try playing with the player model, but it's not likely that the experience will be very good. The player model for doom 3 is only used for reflections and (when turned on) player shadow. Sorry, we're firmly committed to providing a true thief style first person experience, we don't believe that third person belongs in Thief Style gameplay. I understand you may enjoy playing in third person, but if it's going to make a full appearance in Dark Mod, it will have to be completed by someone else after we release it.

#4 Vadrosaul

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 12:38 PM

The first-person perspective in TDS felt more like third-person perspective with a camera shoved into the head of Garrett, which in turn provides the "body awareness"
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#5 Arumakani

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 01:22 PM

Any ideas on how to mod for 3rd person?
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#6 New Horizon

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 03:24 PM

The first-person perspective in TDS felt more like third-person perspective with a camera shoved into the head of Garrett, which in turn provides the "body awareness"


Which is exactly what it was. :)

#7 New Horizon

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 03:25 PM

Any ideas on how to mod for 3rd person?


Just a lot of hard work creating proper animations, tweaking the camera for performance so you have a good view...etc.

It's not something we're putting any time into, so you might find more answers on www.doom3world.org

#8 Ishtvan

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 04:57 PM

Yeah I think someone even made an overhead view mod on D3World. It's mainly just the 3rd person animations for unique TDM stuff like ladder climbing, rope climbing, mantling that would be a pain in the ass.

#9 Dram

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:58 AM

Any ideas on how to mod for 3rd person?


Well, to put it simply, we won't remove it, we just won't support it. Which means you can still open the console up and type in "pm_thirdperson 1" and go to third person :)

Might be a bit hard to aim with bow though...

#10 Arumakani

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 06:09 AM

Well, to put it simply, we won't remove it, we just won't support it. Which means you can still open the console up and type in "pm_thirdperson 1" and go to third person :)

Might be a bit hard to aim with bow though...


So will it be the same as Oblivion's 3rd person? DS had a good 3rd person that aims in FP for arrows. The 3rd person in DS isn't as good with the camera as Splinter Cell but the FP aim is better than the over the shoulder aim of SC.
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#11 Dram

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 06:16 AM

So will it be the same as Oblivion's 3rd person?


Not exactly. In D3 it does'nt go FP at all unless you tell it to. You can easily set up a button in your config file to do this as a toggle though, for example : bind "d" "toggle pm_thirdperson 1" in the doomconfig.cfg file will have the D button toggle between FirstPerson and Third. It's very useful being able to have toggles like this :)

#12 Arumakani

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 06:26 AM

I meant the view would be like Oblivion in the 3rd person. That is the animation etc isn't too hot.

Are there any pics of Doom 3 in the 3rd person view?
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#13 Domarius

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 06:59 AM

Why do you prefer 3rd person over first, though?

#14 New Horizon

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:26 AM

I meant the view would be like Oblivion in the 3rd person. That is the animation etc isn't too hot.

Are there any pics of Doom 3 in the 3rd person view?


As stated before, just go into the doom 3 console and type pm_thirdperson 1 and hit enter. That will let you play doom 3 in third person, which itself is not fully supported in doom 3...it's just left over for the cinematics.

As for firing a bow or anything of that nature, once you go into third person...you do everything in third person. Thief Deadly shadows provided support for first and third, that's why the player was sucked into first person when they fired the bow...they programmed it, but as we have said from the very beginning...we're won't program, support or spend any development time on third person. Third person changes the Thief style dynamic and removes the player from 'being' the Thief...to simply controlling a representation of the Thief. It's something that will need to be coded, outside of the mod.

#15 Arumakani

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 08:26 AM

Why do you prefer 3rd person over first, though?


It has better peripheral view cameraand can be used for strategic planning. I don't like the Metal Gear camera as it is too unrealistic. I think Splinter Cell provides the best between Thief FP and MGS view.

The thing is New Horizon, I don't have Doom3, the game, yet for the PC. I tried the game on the XBox and it was SOOOOOOOOO boring. I'll just have to find the pics on the net. The thing is in Thief, Splinter Cell or any game in the third person such as Shenmue, Zelda, Final Fantasy etc you're playing as a character created for the story, who have their own back stories, quests, missions etc. You aren't actually that character, you're just controlling them. In Morrowind, Oblivion etc you create your own character and can look through their eyes or if you model them on yourself, your eyes in the game and therefore FP is more appropriate. Does the DarkMod let you customise your character?
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#16 New Horizon

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:48 AM

Does the DarkMod let you customise your character?


Not in the same sense as an RPG, since the Thief series and Dark Mod are not RPG's...what it does allow the player to do, as did Thief 1 and 2...is pretty much play the way you would play, if you 'were' a Thief. That was the great thing about the first two titles in the Thief series, you 'were' the Thief...even though Garrett was your voice...you still had a lot of choice and control over how you fulfilled your goals. This was true in Thief Deadly Shadows, but to a lesser extent. The game was far more linear than the previous titles and really guided the player by the nose far too much.

#17 Bukary

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 11:38 AM

Right now "pm_thirdperson 1" gives rather funny results: my marine is running around medieval city with invisible bow and sword. ;)
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#18 woah

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:16 PM

I can understand why one might want to utilize a third person perspective after becoming accustomed to a console game, given that the controllers are inferior to keyboard and mouse in terms of the extent of one's capacity in manipulation (and this is exactly why I don't play console games, aside from other issues). As for a PC game, third person simply allows one to cheat with the extended peripheral view and avoid all possible risks, as was implemented somewhat illogically in Thief 3 (which I can confidently say you won't get much praise from around here).

Thief would be much too easy--and thus extremely boring--on a PC game that utilized third person view.

I would recommend playing through Thief 2 (my favorite of all games) on your PC--which is strickly first person view, and then attempt to conceptualize how dull the game would be had you the capacity to eliminate any prospect of challenge the game offered with the ability to wrap your perspective around corners 10ft or more away.

Note that these are simply my opinions. I can see that some may prefer the third person perspective due to its dismissal of any aspect of doubt, chance, or patience ("challenge") --- I just cannot understand it, given that games are entertaining as a result of there being some sort of challenge.

#19 Domarius

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 11:19 PM

It has better peripheral view cameraand can be used for strategic planning.

I think the real issue here is convincing you that 3rd person is not a good idea for this kind of game :)

The FOV is only increased slightly by it being behind position of your character.

The bad side of 3rd person view is that it can be used to peek around corners without moving your character, thus there being no point in the lean keys, and taking all the risk out of peeking around a corner.

Also your own character model can get in the way of your own vision, since it's always in the center of the screen. But this may or may not annoy. The previous point is definetly the most important.

#20 Arumakani

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 03:31 AM

No need in convincing, as after playing Deus Ex 1&2 aswell as Oblivion in FP it is good. It's just after playing Splinter Cell and then Thief DS in 3rd person, I sort of like seeing the character do his/her stuff. It was very difficult for me personally to imagine that I was playing as myself and not the developers character that's all, whilst playing Thief DS in a second playthrough in the FP.

BTW are these what the 3rd person in Doom 3 is like?

http://www.feldoncen...ersontrites.jpg
http://img13.exs.cx/...3/7362/9540.jpg
http://img15.exs.cx/...5/4185/9204.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/...4/5687/5789.jpg
http://img13.exs.cx/...3/6573/9545.jpg

If they are then they don't look too bad.
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#21 New Horizon

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 07:37 AM

No need in convincing, as after playing Deus Ex 1&2 aswell as Oblivion in FP it is good. It's just after playing Splinter Cell and then Thief DS in 3rd person, I sort of like seeing the character do his/her stuff. It was very difficult for me personally to imagine that I was playing as myself and not the developers character that's all, whilst playing Thief DS in a second playthrough in the FP.

BTW are these what the 3rd person in Doom 3 is like?

http://www.feldoncen...ersontrites.jpg
http://img13.exs.cx/...3/7362/9540.jpg
http://img15.exs.cx/...5/4185/9204.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/...4/5687/5789.jpg
http://img13.exs.cx/...3/6573/9545.jpg

If they are then they don't look too bad.


They might not look bad, but playing with it is a different story completely. Doom 3 was never fully tweaked for third person play, it's a first person game...but the third person model is there for reflections...and shadows, if you turn on the player shadow. It's 'passable' but I sure wouldn't play the game with it. It's wonky.

#22 Arumakani

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:31 AM

In Oblivion the 3rd person is a bit weird too. It was in Morrowind also. It's just a shame not seeing your character doing the stuff you want him to do. What's the name of the character in the DarkMod? Does he have that slightly bored Harrison FOrd in BladeRunner voice over of Garrett in Thief DS?
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#23 ZylonBane

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:25 AM

It's just a shame not seeing your character doing the stuff you want him to do.

As long as you continue thinking of "your character" instead of "yourself", you will fail.

#24 demagogue

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:52 PM

Yeah, it's hard not to notice when you change between 1stP and 3dP you're really changing the whole character of the PC, the game, and the gameplay.

3rd Person instantly makes me think of Tomb Raider-esque gameplay, where you really use the environment as something for your PC to manipulate to advance, more running, jumping, hanging puzzles, and NPCs as just another kind of environmental barrier to "navigate" around (but this time one that shoots back). A bit more gimmicky, although fun in its own way for what it is.

1st person, the environment isn't something you *use* so much as it's something you're *in*, immediately more immersive, more concentrated on the NPCs *as characters in the world with you*, who is where?, than on the hallways and ledges and NPC's around you as just different categories of hurdles in your way, which can never escape a kind of superficialism IMO. FP just makes the gameplay and the whole world a level deeper, again IMO.

I wouldn't mind seeing a few 3P oriented FMs if they come out for Darkmod if they can be pulled off, some classic Tomb-Raider like hopping around. They could even be very fun for a quick jaunt, as long as the 1stPerson experience isn't in any way compromised to cater to them. But they just won't tap into what really excites me about FP gameplay that 3P just can't capture. Of course, this is just my preference, but I don't mind acknowledging that TDM's design comes with a kind of gameplay agenda that I happen to agree with.

Edited by demagogue, 09 May 2006 - 01:02 PM.

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#25 Arumakani

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 10:10 AM

Fp is immersive no doubt about it, but 3rd person can be as tense and more strategic, if you take something like Splinter Cell into account. I think I'm going to have to learn how to do this modding malarky :D and do some 3rd person stuff. I'd love a game with the scal of Oblivion, set in a huge medieval/Thief style city with loads of areas to explore, climb, break into etc. Imagine that one huge Mega City, different quarters, types of people, classes and such. Maybe you can case the areas during the day, then infiltrate at night.
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