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I find the skill in blackjacking should lie in maneuvering yourself into a position where you can knockout an AI and hide the body without getting detected by other AIs. Once you’re in that position, the blackjack should always function reliably as long as you aim at the head from behind - you shouldn’t have to worry about things like hitting the nape of the neck (without a crosshair) or standing at a certain distance, which I wouldn’t label elements of difficulty but rather potentially frustrating inconveniences. It’d certainly be a case where realism should give way to gameplay. The Thief games take this too far in that hitting any bodypart from any direction will knock them out, and they don’t get alerted by you running up to them, but that aside I think they’ve got it right with respect to my previous paragraph. I only rarely hear someone complain that Thief’s blackjacking is too easy, but it comes up again and again that TDM’s blackjack is too unreliable.

I’m sure this will have been discussed before, and I admit I haven’t checked through the other 82 pages of this thread. But I believe, and have done for some time, that the biggest problem with the game is the combat system. I acknowledge that some regard Thief as too easy, and I know TDM has different difficulty settings. But the easiest TDM setting is still too difficult, and in no way comparable with Thief. I’m currently using TDM 2.08, 64 bit, but have also used previous versions. Here specifically is what I don’t like. 1. The blackjack is too erratic. I realise that, just as with Thief, some AI cannot be blackjacked but, with those that can, success or failure can sometimes seem to depend on miniscule difference of proximity or timing. Some of us don’t like ghosting, we prefer to clear the AI out the way as much as possible so we can admire and explore the wonderful map the author has created, and get to work on any puzzles they have set us, at our leisure. But all too often frustrating multiple reloads are required because an AI won’t go down. And once they are alerted by an unsuccessful BJ attempt, the following additional problems arise. 2. AIs have elastic arms. They can cause you damage at what seems like 8 or 9 feet from their bodies, and can do so through walls. This is even true of weaponless zombies, their swiping arms balloon out and catch you from way off. By contrast the player can only seem to cause damage when they are within 2 or 3 feet of their target, using the blunt knitting needle that is the short sword, a weapon which is particularly ineffective against the undead. 3. And when you’re hit, you put away any weapon you’ve drawn. It’s right that you take damage, and possibly have to pause, but not put away your weapon. What, so you can shake their hand? Many of us have come to TDM from Thief and continue to play Thief FMs as well as TDM. Can’t we have a combat difficulty setting in TDM that mirrors Thief’s gameplay more closely?

Hi, I am currently working on my first mission. You can download the files from my google drive here.I would appreciate any feedback you could provide. I have provided the aas32, cm, map, and proc files. I don't think there is anything else I need to add. If I need to upload more just let me know. Thank You.

I'm glad you made that crystal clear...

Ive looked into the blackjack a bit - its hit detection and everything seems solid. I think the biggest difference as far as I can tell between thief and TDM is the TDM guards have random head movements which shift the volume that detects a successful black jack. So in other words, you want to make sure your landing the hit according to the direction the back of their head is facing (this is basically and invisible cone protruding out from their skull). This can take a lot of getting used to for sure. There are other factors too- how alerted they are, are they wearing helmets... ect.. In general the system is more complex than thief, but it might not be communicating those complexities as well as it could I guess. Im curious, did you play the tutorial?

Hey Davy, welcome to the community! So I did a super quick run through of your map and its got a pretty solid layout overall. I'm sure you already know that you need a briefing, AI, readables, decorations, and all that jazz, but the layout seems like it would make for a great small mission. A couple things: You should add some detail to the courtyard where the player starts, either a fountain, a statue, a tree. whatever, just to give that area some flair so its not just a plain flat square. Also consider using patches to make small bumps and hills in the elevation so the grass is not just FLAT. Secondly, you should definitely add more visportals, as there were several long hallways and corners that were devoid of them. Don't be afraid to be generous with em. Third, since this is a chapel, consider making a secret crypt the player can explore. And of course, you'll need a skybox (there is just a black sky) and more lights. Overall, this seems like a great start and it looks like you can start focusing on the detail work and atmosphere; consider giving rooms baseboards, wainscoatings, etc. Here is the link to a couple pictures with some suggestions: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZKq7Le7FFIYK5Ibsdl100Tng7VPvPGQB?usp=sharing

No problem man, but we've visited this topic before, and the number of complaints is actually really low. Of the number of people who use the mod, it's a handful of people who chime in, maybe 5-6 at the most. The success of the mod in general indicates that the VAST majority of people do NOT have an issue with the blacjacking, especially since BJing is such a prominent feature of the game.

The thing is, in a game without peripheral vision (after all, it's not (yet) VR), it's not that easy to estimate the distance, and, if the game is so picky about the distance then... well, you say it. Guaranteed failure. Anyway, all that I'm saying is that it should be more forgiving. As I mentioned, it's very unrewarding to fail knockouts because the games is so fidgety about distance. And, I wouldn't expect the sweet spot to be somewhere on the back or below the neck of a guard as well... "Aim for the head", as they say.

I think it's perfectly fine to make posts for any FM in this forum, regardless of when the last post was made. It's always good to hear thoughts and feedback. Regarding not being able to frob anything, that's typically associated with trying to read a readable that has no text defined (a mapping error). Seems strange that you had that from the outset, though.

Yeah, but you are not using a bat or something, but a small item exactly made for that purpose. What I know from movies and books, you do it from rather close up...

Could this be fixed by changing the cone? Because for most people if would seem reasonable that you could not ever fail in real life by being too close...

What I picked up from the video is that it seems like you have to have the right distance, and that it's better to knock them on the neck. Doing that doesn't really change much for me though. It's still a complete hit and miss. As I mentioned, sometimes it seems it's even easier to knock guards with helmets out, than the ones without. It remains a mystery for me. Sometimes I even manage to knock a guard out from 45° in front. Which is weird, because, that never worked for me in the past (knocking guards out from the front). In general, there's nothing which is less rewarding for me than successfully sneaking up a guard, and then mess up the blackjacking because the system works in a way that is not obvious to the player.

I play the mod for ten years now, and still have issues knocking people out. So, yeah, I can definitely relate to the problem... the blackjacking always was weird in TDM. I don't think it has to do with helmet or not either. Sometimes, I have no problem knocking out guards with helment, even though I feel like I wouldn't knock them out, and sometimes, I fail on guard with no helmet at all 3 or 4 times in a row, even though it "felt good", and I have no idea what I' doing wrong. And, no, those guards aren't alerted either. It's just that it seems like the game has such a small area you have to hit perfectly that it's a hit or miss most of the time. The original Thief's were just totally different in that regard. There are quite a few missions which have elite guards. If you want to try one particular mission, then try William Steele 3, where there are 3 or 4 elite guards right at the beginning, guarding sewers. *cough cough*

I belong to these people too, which was one of the main reasons I made the patch. I would guess most of the developers here are professionals, while I play TDM once in a while when a new mission comes out or I when am bored. Regarding the black jacking, the act as such is not problematic in my opinion but the enemies getting immune once they are alerted. Why should a guard suddenly get a force field around it's head the second he hears you ;)? In my patch you can black jack normal guards unless they have their weapon between you and the blackjack after which is gets very difficult as it should...

I agree to that which is why I removed the magical zero-seconds immunity to blackjacking in my Unofficial Patch. Please test it and tell me if this would be more like you imagine it! You can find it as a TDM addon on the ModDB...

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Creating_Automaps The functionality can easely be altered. Marking the exact position of the player on the map is easy in theory, but would require the map to exactly represent the actual mission geometry (proportions must match). This isn't necessarely the case, though.

I will never understand how much trouble people still have with Blackjacking in TDM, unless you're new of course, it's understandable. But, if we make it any easier.....it's already trivial to knock out everyone, and I play on Challenging/Challenging for site and sound of AI. Like....how easy do you need it?