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Hello, welcome to the forums, and thanks for the encouraging comments The website is updated every now and then, usually when a lot piles up to update, while other things, like bug fixing, are not so interesting. As a little side note, it is now possible to have briefing videos (ala T1/2) before buying items etc. Should present some nice opportunities for great FM creators to pop in a video.

killing vs ghosting: If I'm going into a mansion full of people who have no resentment or hesitation to kill me why should I? But ghosting does make you feel like a badass in the sense that they dont even know what happened the next morning. some missions however have unreasonable amount of guards to set a no kill rule. what if i want to have a higher threshold for loot required and objects needed but not a kill limit or restriction? more options would be nice in that sense. and if there are going to be kill restrictions id rather they exchange my broadhead for water arrows. you can never have enough water arrows.

I think it would add variety, but its hard to see what else than rocks and bottles they should throw. One nice thing would be when they fetched things from nearby tables and did throw them at you. Most missions don't include enough moveables, tho. However, a compromise would be when they want to throw a rock, they first kneel down and pick on up. (might look silly on a wood floor, tho

If you can't understand that I'm a fan of SotSR.

Hm.. Just read through this fascinating thread and would want to point out that we definately need to build the community top X mission list. I think there seems to be a steady stream of new people coming here and they should be pointed towards the best missions the Mod has to offer to avoid incorrect impressions.

Just so this isn't missed, there's an issue with the run animation and combat. AI can run while attacking, but the run animation makes them bend forward too far: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?s=&am...st&p=187521

Hello, welcome to the forums Just a question, did you wish to help with the Dark Mod by being a programmer? Please clarify. Otherwise, if you are new to Dark Mod then feel free to check out the website for details and screenshots etc. http://www.thedarkmod.com

I tend to agree with Springheel. I am not a developer though. The mod is pretty much where I want it to be. All we need as players is more missions to play. I've played every single one of them. The thing that TDM gives us (that no Thief game ever did) is complete flexibility. *anything* can be changed by FMAs. Since the Thief source was never and probably will never be released, only so many aspects of the game can be changed. You can't have real-time lighting. If you go the TDS route, you can't have swim-able water. We can't play TDS correctly on any platform except Windows.

Well, copyright (at least in the US, and I think in most countries following the Berne convention) says that things "too simple" can't be copyrighted. Shopping lists, cooking receipes, C header files, all these things can't be copyrighted as they are not "high enough" on the creativity scale. Plus, some of these things have a "technical aspect" which is nec. for interoperability - you cannot cook onion if you want them fried, you cannot have a "#define" named "#foowarble" etc, these things are sort of fixed. All that further reduces the creativity that goes into these files, so nobody can claim copyright on them. IMO filenames for textures and particles, as well as shader names fall in the same category. Yes, it would be better if we changed them, but we can only do so for texture names - particle names and material shader names need to stay (or we need to make a 100% test of all missions and call it TDM v2.0 because it might break something). Of course, you'd need to ask a lawyer to get a sensible advice on this (and if you ask 2 lawyers, you get 3 opinions...)

Just out of curiosity, Julio, which missions have you played so far?

Why should that matter? Read any of the reviews above for examples on how reviews are written. I'd rather you write reviews for missions you actually like, of course.

Some interesting ideas in there, but yeah, you haven't experienced some of the current features yet. Guards do have ranged attacks. For one, there are archers, and standard swordsmen can throw rocks at the player if he is out of reach. Gas arrows, fire arrows, and mines are all there. My personal fav are the gas arrows. There's nothing like gassing a crowd of guards all at once. Third-person and lint loot have been discussed in the past, and I got the general impression that the team didn't care for these features. A lot of the classic Thief players don't. I don't want this to turn into a debate, I'll just say that the Doom 3 engine already supports third-person views with a rotate-able camera, and someone could probably do some fancy scripting to get a reasonable third-person mode working. The main problem there is a lack of upper animations for the player character. As far as loot goes, I agree it would be cool to get to use your loot collected from one mission on another, but this would probably upset some mappers if they wanted you to have a set amount of tools to complete the mission. Still it would be cool to have a lasting accomplishment for completing missions. As for the footsteps, its a video game thing. All opponents in stealth games have the magical ability to discern the player from fellow guards via sound queues. I don't know of any reasonable way to fix this without breaking a game (making it too easy).

I think you need to play a few more missions. Many of the improvements you've requested already exist...

For the nomination thread, go here: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showtopic=8991 The following is an attempt at taking a serious look at our texture repository. Hopefully it'll help us find the right balance between providing a decent offering while not being bloated with redundant or poor textures, and while keeping overall art quality in the mod high. Anyone is welcomed to join or chime in. I certainly don't want to seem like the executioner. Please keep in mind what I write here is one person's opinion made on an assembly line process, and not intended to be a criticism of anyone's work. Notes I write aren't necessarily all-inclusive or fully thought out as much as what jumped out at me in an initial impression sense. If you disagree, speak up! The system I'm using is just to update this map a half-dozen textures at a time, using the text entities, then viewing them in game with the moving lights. This is an ongoing process, a little at a time, so I (or whoever else) do not become burned out on it. Okay, on with it then... =============================== Key: 7+ Good stuff. 4-6 Ranging from pretty good to not so good, or serves a need. Consider low end for deleting or fixing. 3- Poor; this stuff should go. ----- Notes: (1) would benefit from normal map improvement ----- textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_green_black01 5: decent 'texture' to it, unique, serves a need textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_black_gold01 5: decent 'texture' to it, serves a need textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_floral_checker01 4: bland and blurry, odd normalmap textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_rectangles_brown01 4: (1), appealing in a rustic sense, but is blurry textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_red_tan02 6: (1), attractive and useful textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/ornate_red_tan01 8: good coloring and normalmap textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/plain_redgreen 4: (1), lack of normal and color clash with incoherency mute this one's potential textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/plain_redgreen_design 5: (1), addition of design really helps here textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/plain_whitey 5: (1), serves a need textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/rug_arrow_darkbrown_mooyan 4: (1), has potential, but is currently too washed out and incoherent textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/rug_arrow_darkbrown_old 4: (1), basically same as mooyan version textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/rug_whitey_striped 6: (1), gaudy in a good way, and certainly useful textures/darkmod/carpet/rugs/rug_whitey_striped_design 8: (1), excellent aside from lacking normalmap textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/ornate_green_white* 6: serves a color need, though could be a better green, diffuse and subtle normalmap actually makes it appear fuzzy/sewn (awesome)! textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/geometric01_red* 6: decent normalmap, vibrant, not terribly attractive but serves a need textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/geometric02_red* 6: (1?), attractive, looks sewn textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/ornate_grey_white* 7: attractive, vibrant, looks sewn textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/ornate_black_white* 7: attractive, vibrant, looks sewn textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/ornate_blue_white* 7: attractive, vibrant, looks sewn textures/darkmod/carpet/runners/ornate_red_white* 7: attractive, vibrant, looks sewn --- end /carpet ------------------- notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/dirt/stainwallfade2 notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/dirt/drip notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/cracks/cracks01 notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/web2_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/web4_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/webcorner_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/webdangle_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/webround1_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/websquare_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/webstrand_id notfound: textures/darkmod/decals/webs/webtile_id ----- end decals -------------------- notfound: textures/darkmod/door/metal/rusty_twopanels textures/darkmod/door/frame/arched_heavy01_frame 8: good deep normalmap, serves a need textures/darkmod/door/metal/bars_rivets_hinge 7: nice grain about it textures/darkmod/door/metal/bars_rivets_old 8: nice normalmap and speculars, a classic reinforced metal door textures/darkmod/door/metal/large_warehouse_old_green01 6: nice specs, serves a need textures/darkmod/door/metal/metal_pattern_overwood 7: interesting, decorative, multi-purpose textures/darkmod/door/metal/simple_rough01 5: (1), very basic, almost feels like a stage might be missing. Needs spec and normal improvement. textures/darkmod/door/wood/ornate/smooth_rich_ovalwindow01 5: (1), much potential, suffers from glare, slightly blurry, need better normals if to be used on brushes textures/darkmod/door/wood/ornate/smooth_rich_squarewindow01 4: (1), blurry (is this used on models?) textures/darkmod/door/wood/5panels_01_worn 9: excellent, photorealistic textures/darkmod/door/wood/9panels_01_pale_worn 8: excellent textures/darkmod/door/wood/9panels_02_brown01 8: very good, likely to be a very standard frequently used material textures/darkmod/door/wood/9panels_02_red01 8: as previous; hopefully these are just hue shift textures? textures/darkmod/door/wood/arched_heavy01 7: good normals, serves a need (paired arch) textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_metalbands01 6: bit bland? textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_metalbands_old 7: very nice wood, would benefit from having the metal lifted in the normalmap textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_oblique_nails_hinge 9: excellent, will be used often textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_plain_hinge01 5: bland, normals on hinges are good textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_plain_hinge02 6: bit bland, hinges a bit blurry, but otherwise attractive textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_plainblue_hinge01 5: as above, could use stronger normal, why blue? textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_plainblue_hinge02 6: as above, could use stronger normal, why blue? textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_uneven_ornatecorners01 7: vibrant and interesting textures/darkmod/door/wood/board_uneven_ornatecorners02 7: vibrant and interesting, color of the metal a bit unsettling textures/darkmod/door/wood/boards_2diamonds_worn 5: (1), good diffuse but needs normalmap work textures/darkmod/door/wood/boards_old_rough 5: (1), good diffuse but needs normalmap work textures/darkmod/door/wood/diamond_pattern01 5: (1), slight blur, needs normalmap work, but overall not bad textures/darkmod/door/wood/diamond_pattern02_nails 9: excellent, near photorealistic textures/darkmod/door/wood/diamond_pattern02_nails_dark 7: darker version of above, very good but not as appealing textures/darkmod/door/wood/metalbands_crisscross01 8: very attractive, will be used often, would probably be a 9 but for slight blur textures/darkmod/door/wood/old_flat_oak01 1: bland, ugly, bad glare gradient, blurry, no normals (that's just a shadow in the diffuse you're seeing); only saving grace is the specular textures/darkmod/door/wood/old_weathered_boards01 4: technical problems: normals are inverted; this is a door? Diffuse is flat, but normal gives it panels. expect that it probably has cousin in /wood textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_2panels_red01 6: maybe slightly blurry/bland, even "non-doory", but interesting due to normalmap textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_2panels_rich 5: (1), for model use perhaps? needs normalmap for brushes, but otherwise attractive textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_3panels01_dull01 4: (1), something wrong with normalmap, looks lumpy textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_3panels_red01 4: (1), for models? needs normal if to be used for brushes (perhaps move to /models?) textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_4panels_red01 6: a bit flat, but otherwise nice textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_4panels_tan01 6: a bit flat, but otherwise nice textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels01_tall 7: attractive and sharp textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels01_tall_red 7: attractive and sharp textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels02 7: good normalmap textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels02_brown 7: good normalmap textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels02_red 7: good normalmap (hopefully these are hue shifts) textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels03_brown 7: good normalmap textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels03_light (hue shift) textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_5panels03_red (hue shift) textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_6panels02 7: bit flat, but good otherwise textures/darkmod/door/wood/smooth_6panels_red01 7: good normalmap, different textures/darkmod/door/wood/weathered_boards 5: flat, needs normalmap work ---- end /door ------------------------- no issues with /fabric ; these are all decent or better quality, and serve a need ---- end /fabric ------------------------ (as is evident from the first addition to the list, only a few are in question of removal) (individual evaluation maps might be coming to SVN; TBD)

It's strange that I never saw this. Because I'm always in cg forums and googling references in a daily basis! Just fixed that! It's one of the problems of detailing the parts separately, you lose notion of scale.

To complete this topic, I would also emphasize that "tons of weapons" is also a mission design flaw. Why not limit the amount of arrows available instead of making a mission no-kill. You can't clear a map if you don't have enough arrows to do so... Though, in that case, the KO is still a problematic mechanism and some more tools to make AI aware of other AI's routes would still help... As a side note, any mission where you can purchase an Armory of weapons in the shop is usually poorly planned from the POV of weapon to AI balance. This is probably part of my reason for preferring missions like "Trapped!" where weapons are found rather than bought in the shop.

Im actually willing to give a movie like Doom one shot, Im sure its pretty silly but I dont think it is trying to be anything else. Ill watch it once for the nostalgia. talking about seeing video game perspectives in movies, what about Star Warts I, the Fan-base Menace? Towards the end of the movie there is an extended battle scene in a factory or something with characters jumping over and under crates. "Where have I seen this before?" I wondered. Ahhh, its a jumping puzzle from a video game! Talk about crossover and product placement....

Not necessarily a problem. But it would be cool to be able to utilize Broadhead arrows in difficult missions. The way to fix this problem is with some scheme that makes the kills trigger alerts eventually just as real guards would grow suspect when their comrades have been gone too long. You could even create a KO or Kill timer that sets an absolute time before all AI within such radius become alert. Your alarm method would work as well. Some sort of mechanism that allows the use of Broadheads in a challenging context would be great. If the easy mode is the only mode where Broadheads can be used, it should still offer "some challenge" or that mode almost becomes a non-game. Undesirable for any player.

Hm... So many are against increasing challenge in with difficutly with objective restrictions. I am surprized. I do find the idea of moral decision with consequences interesting, but let's face it. The missions do get really easy if you eliminate the AI's. It is easy to kill (easy difficulty) and it is challenging to KO (medium difficulty). The mission becomes hard if you are removed from those options (hard difficulty). But it all boils to mission design I think. The above is fine for a mission with static AI patrols and predictability. There is no consequences for KO if the body is not found. There is no consequence for the kill if the body, blood and the sword is not found. In a mission with static routes, the player is almost guaranteed the stuff is easy to hide. This supports the difficulty controlled AI interaction limitation. Basically there is no potential consequence for the AI elimination. But there is an alternative. The big red button is placed somewhere in the map. There are a few AI that walk the matrix and examine every single room casually, randomly with low probability. If the are alerted, they will idle_alert_only to the big red button and press it. Alarm sounds, and plenty of new guards arrive to the scene. Now there is always a potential consequence for the player actions. BTW: is it a problem if you have to play on an easier difficulty to be able to kill everyone you want?

I disagree with the point that you can still kill on easy and that higher difficulty should have mandatory no kills - maybe you want the challenge of harder settings but still want the freedom to take out enemies when needed. And I would also argue that mission design alone can make it very hard to kill everyone with abandon - there are points in Score to Settle or Heart of Lone Salvation for example that are so well guarded that you would have to go really out of your way to be able to kill people without setting off a general alert (small sounds to separate them, etc), and it is the mission design that makes it an advantage to actually move stealthly and avoid confrontation, not necessarily an abstract restriction. I think that is the ideal way, personally, and all it involves is a good strategic eye from the map maker. New additions to the AI seem to have made it more taxing to kill - there seems to be more general alerts, and thats brilliant. The biggest frailty is still, in my opinion, the lack of awereness between guards, but that can still be simulated by good, hard to breach group placement. Think of the main patio in Heart of Lone Salvation, you simply can't take out the guards there, they are too well covered by one another. Thats also a very fun nut to crack, by the way. My "vote" goes to optional objectives too, if you want to max out your performance, dont kill or KO anyone, sure, but I still think killing is a valid strategy sometimes and one should be able to do it (even the moral question), if one feels the important thing is to go to the point and get the job done. Being an archer is really fun in this mod, killing should indeed be easy, thats realistic, I think its just a matter of working on improving the consequences of killing enemies in the game and missions.

That was something I proposed early on and it's actually in the design docs. We've never gotten around to doing it, however. I'm not entirely sure it would have a big impact on this particular problem, though, since death-barks are already supposed to propogate to AI (though I'm not sure they always do). Maybe they need to propagate further. Any changes to carrying bodies would affect kills and KO's equally, which isn't really what we want to do here. How many missions have both no kill AND no KO restrictions?

Instead of tying no kill/ko to difficulty level you can add them as optional objectives. You could probably even have them as optional on all 3 difficulties but hidden on the first one or two (only show up on mission completion). Success in missions can be very arbitrary or user-defined; playstyles vary, some people try to get all the loot and secrets or don't care, and multiple routes are applauded. So optional objectives is probably the way to go. Especially in the upcoming Crucible campaign.

the hardcore no kill no knockout missions are probably turning away potentional players of the mod though, not everyone likes to play a map on settings that start at hardcore then go harder. As far as I remember there's only 2 official thief 2 maps that restrict knockouts and they appear later on in the thief 2 campaign. So by the time you've come across them you should already know how to play the game.

That's a nice idea for a mission (though I'd stay away from the precursor stuff) but the problem with using it for a contest is that the settings of each mission are in direct competition--you can't have five or six different lost cities underneath Bridgeport. Setting-defining missions should also (ideally) be well thought-out and researched in advance, which isn't always practical in a contest setting. My vote would be for something more generic: "map must have an underground setting", or something very specific that can be approached in a number of different ways: "mission must include sophisticated alarm system".

Don't take the campaign into account when planning contests. First, the timeframe of its completion is not yet determined, but it is definitely more than one contest cycle. The community can do a contest without us. Second, Bikerdude has found a way to participate anyway, so... again, Crucible should be disregarded. Nonetheless, I would wait with an announcement until at least the newbie contest has concluded, and its missions been rated. People also have their own projects, which would be cool to see completed.