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RIght, so you dont just walk away, you chloro them to finish the job. I prefer to play with the "no kills" objective anyway, so it would not be so very different than that. A waking guard *knows* he has been KOd, so the whole place would go nuts knowing there is a thief about. Which to me seems a compelling reason to fail a player. And yes, I think setting off an alarm should fail the mission, at least in the missions Id like to make. The ten minutes was just an arbitrary time, it could be 10 seconds is a mission author wished. I just thought it would add an element of realism, black jacks arent going to KO someone for hours on end so you add the chloro to make it stick, but that brings its own risks, taking the time to do it and all plus the possiblity of running out of the stuff. But all that being said, it was just an idea, if no one likes it, fine, I just go and sulk. Hmmp. Im sulking. See above.

Cradle-like missions are going to be absolutely phenominal using the Doom3 engine. I'll do one of those.

Really? I didn't know that. When I served in the army we had a training where we should do this. Of course with a fake machine gun that we should storm. I didn't even participate in this training storm, much less in a real one. Instead I stayed back and kept my gun clean. The fake bullets are making a lot of dirt in the gun so I didn't shot a single one. But there were always some crazy guys who liked it, so I usually swapped my ammo with them. They got my full and I got their empty ones. So I could show the officer that my gun was empty afterwards Maybe because these days you don't need to go to the army, at least not for the real missions. So the ones doing it on their own free will, are more likely to kill anyway. In our army I know that at least some of the officers just stayed in the army because they had a chance to study there. The army provided for them so they could more easily finance it. So they have to serve 5 or ten years (dont know really how much) and in this time they spend a lot of studying, and then the leave and do some usefull work.

I second that, although I am not sure how much work is required to keep track of things across missions like that. But it is a good way to provide a disincentive to going on killing sprees. And I like the idea of KOd AI regaining consciousness after a period of time - I think 15 min should be enough to make people think twice before pulling out the blackjack. You then have to think about whether or not it is worth having the KOd AI waking up and alerting all the other guards to the fact that someone just whacked them, or if it is better to just find a way to slip past them unnoticed...

I just hope there's not too much stuff hidden away on the Expert setting, forcing me to play "properly" TDP/MA 'Hard' setting was my usual setting, and sometimes the "Don't kill anyone" was just too difficult for me. I managed to do a couple of missions on Expert, and certainly enjoyed those ones (especially when they had the unKOable enemies) but it was too much for LotP, for example - when you had to try and break in through windows without being seen, and when you couldn't tell what the guard was doing! I prefered to shoot a broadhead through the window and have done with it.

Well, when TDM is released and I start making maps, I will be doing my darndest to make some nicely balanced missions that favour ghosters. I hope to make them staggeringly hard to ironman your way through, and while I won't be expecting the player to find every damn coin and candlestick in the mission to complete it, I will be expecting the player to be very cautious and observant. I will try to integrate most of the loot objectives into the story, so that if the player wants to go hunting for more loot they can, but there is no need for them to do so... I hope I will be able to deliver on that, but, being a perfectionist who tends to overwork things to death, my releases might be few and far between. Hell, I still haven't released any of my Unreal maps

Been tinkering with some ideas for a female thief. The same model could be used for NPC thief characters and for the female player model (the T2X guys are interested in using TDM for future Zaya missions). Two versions below, with scarf and without. I'm lukewarm about the concept, so feel free to provide suggestions.

I liked those missions in T2, like the warehouse one at the beginning, where the amount of loot was part of the story. You need 500 in loot to pay your rent. Makes sense. The "collect 95% of the loot" stuff in TDS was stupid, because it was presented as an abstract percentage instead of a concrete amount for a particular purpose. And if you are going to make the player collect a lot of loot and it isn't your primary objective, you had better reward them by allowing them to purchase something pretty spiffy. It is a bit pointless also if you are making a single mission FM, since the player won't be able to use the loot at the end. So if you aren't going to include the loot as a part of the story, or reward them player with a worthwhile toy to buy, don't reduce the mission to a loot hunt by putting a silly loot requirement in. That is also why I favour having a limit on how much stuff the player can carry - purely for the sake of gameplay if not realism - it means the player has to consider what they put in their loot sack a bit more carefully, and carry only the tools and weapons they need, and it stops the game from becoming a mindless loot hunt or from shooting all the AI full of arrows until they are all dead, thereby circumventing the stealth aspect. Realism aside, being able to carry 40 broadheads, 35 water arrows, 15 fire arrows, 10 gas arrows, 5 noisemaker arrows, 5 rope arrows, a blackjack, and sword seriously unbalances the game in my view (my numbers might be a bit off, but you get the idea). If you have all that stuff (TDS made it ridiculously easy to accumulate a full armoury), you can pretty much play the game like a FPS without giving a damn about stealth, so tighter limits on what you can carry, realistic or not, make the game more focussed on stealth rather than using a huge arsenal to blunder your way through the mission. And as I have no doubt mentioned before, I like the idea of the player having to choose between a trade off between having more loot and moving more slowly and noisily, and having less loot and moving more quickly and stealthily. Puts more of an element of strategy and objective planning into the game. Maybe not everyones cup of tea though.

Well yes I really like the Thief and ... Ghost. Yes those two. Good AI, no lootcount. Mind you I gave up on ghost as I kept on mucking up so play on Thief with giving myself only 3 blackjacks (like Shoalsgate on Hard) and being good generally. I ghosted the latter half of the human missions on T2x as well, easy (difficulty: hard) See the thing is I hate loot hunts at the end. Yes I agree with Oddity, hence I really like the optional one of COSAS GATI. Although on Hard I met it while looking to solve the other bits and bobs. But I don't want to cut off 50% of a mission due to my fear of the "Expert" or "L33t" lootcount.

Sorry, when I said "single campaign" I meant "single mission." For a campaign, modded behaviour is fantastic. For a single, standalone, once-off, non-contiguous mission, when every single one is different, it would get confusing. A campaign gives you the chance to acclimatise yourself to the quirks and nuances of the "game" you're playing - essentially each campaign becomes a new game, perhaps with a new lead, set within the same world. On realism (again) I think it's important to remember that realistic applies within the gameworld, not necessarily to the real world. This is where the word "consistency" comes in - if slightly fantastical things are possible, but are presented well and in consistency with other elements, then there is no immersion break. This is the whole premise of good fantasy - that you can alter the world, but as long as you do it properly, it still provides a cohesive experience. As such, a fantastical setting can be as fun and immersive as a non-fantastical one. Thus, the choice between real-world and fantastical realism is a design one, not an objective one - as long as the team has the capability to realise a consistent fantasy. I realise (obviously) that certain people (obscurus, oDD) would rather TDM be real-world than fantastical, or at any rate, nearer to real-world than Thief was. Simultaneously, we have those who don't care and those who want lots of fantasy. Hopefully it's been realised that this preference is subjective, rather than based on a general immersion scale, and that whatever camp someone belongs to, the game will probably be enjoyable AND immersive. With that said, there is still nothing stopping an FM author leaving out rope arrows, or making other changes. Since we all survived the first missions of TDP/TMA without them, I think we'll survive an FM for TDM without them?

We're not going to go into any further detail about those systems at this point as it's far too early to give any real answers. In my opinion, loot count should be determined by the FM author as this is one of the goals that determines how the author intended the level to be won. I included playstyles in Minimalist Project 1.4 as a way to test how adjusting the required loot on the original missions would affect the gameplay. Yes, Thief Deadly Shadows was my guinea pig. That being said, loot adjustment is not something I would want to see as an option for the player. It should be determined by the fm author for each difficulty level.

On a similar note, I hope TDM doesn't get bogged down in "option frenzy" whereby the player essentially chooses what game they're going to play. As far as I'm concerned, it would take far too long to evaluate all the possible choices, then ascertain which is best. Hopefully enough design decisions will be made by you lot, and then the FM makers. At the same time, I hope we either and up with a lot of campaigns, or individual missions mostly sticking to the similar bunches of settings. One thing I wouldn't want is for you to end up being required to get used to a whole new game for every single mission. Naturally, this wouldn't be a problem for a campaign, where it may as well be a whole other game, and it is worth investing time in learning everything required.

Dude, you are getting on my nerves. If you have a point to make, other than you dont care what anyone else has to say, then make it. If you dont like an idea, say so in civil terms. Springheel has disagreed with most everything Ive said in this thread but has found no need to blow his top. And its a discussion anyway, no one is threatening to murder the families and loved ones of the Mod team if they dont implement rope-bolts. Your standards for immersion are obviously less strict than others, fine, but dont attempt to ridicule the standards of others. A limited shot is NOT boring, to me and many others, because it makes you think harder, use other routes, and because it adds a great deal of realism to our perception of what the THieves world should be. I like missions that make me spend an hour or two figuring out how to get from point a to point b, and whats the least amount of resources i need to do it. We all come here cause we loved Thief, and we all want to see our various hopes/dreams realized in the Dark Mod. That wont happen of course, but thats why we are TALKING ABOUT IT HERE, to compare ideas and suggestions, and see what is viable. But I am done, I hadnt realized this was a sensitive a subject as it obviously is, Ive stated my ideas and thats all I wanted to do.

How about including the crossbow if time permits creating it, and let the LEVEL DESIGNERS decide if they want to implement it in their missions. There, problem solved.

They'll be part of the toolset, but that doesn't mean they have to be part of every FM. Lots of thief missions don't use gas arrows. I think there can be some enjoyment to having a limited, powerful weapon in the game though. You are constantly wondering whether you should use it now, or save it for a potentially worse situation later. Many times I've ended a mission without using my gas arrows or mines because I kept thinking I might need them later. Of course, once you get three or four this no longer works. We could certainly consider giving elite guards an advantage against gas arrows though.

i dont care how much i ask. its good to have a little update on things and how much closer we are geting. i dont hve enough time to realy get in to my thief 3 editor or my D3. i have dabled with editing in both and am resonably good but i dont have any time to realy spend on it. or i would devote all the spair time i have in to it. im just hopeing Fms for this are made avalible soon. i dont realy like thief 3's feel but the minimalist mod does help alot in that area. its been a year and i can only find 2 missions for thief 3 and only one works. but it was good. anyone played it. Townhouse i belive. realy nicely dont for a small map. just keep up the good work guys.

I'm not sure why that is too bad. This is a toolset first and foremost. FM authors will be able to make missions that contain strictly people, spiders, undead or an even handed mixture of everything. Depends what they want to do. It was "good" but in my opinion, that's about it. The game truly didn't live up to its predecessors. I appreciate the effort that went into trying to make T3 great but I don't appreciate the limits placed on the developers by having to make a simultaneous PC/Console release. It should have been PC first, that is where the series was born.

There's also no reason we can't have carts in our missions.

I've been following the progress of this mod from the announcements on the web site since it began. It appears to be improving, and will likely evolve into a nice toolkit for creating Thief-like missions/games/etc. For myself, I would like to see a linux port of The Dark Mod, so access to the source is necessary. For others, there are undoubtedly many projects (both public and private) which would benefit from your progress (just as there is no doubt that The Dark Mod has benefitted immeasurably from the open source work of others). Is this an open source project? (If I am missing a 'download' link somewhere on the web site, forgive me (and point me to it!)).

It would be in reference to both, but more directly the toolset as the toolset must be completed before we can finish any missions.

From what i remembered this was both a project to create a toolset and a set of missions, are you refering to both parts, or just one of them? Also if you guys think that progress is impaired by either a lack of programmers or having to sit there and debug a lot of shit, perhaps it's a good idea to come up with a prototype that everyone can download (even if it only does a few minor things) along with code so people can help bugtest and fix. Getting out a prototype early so that people can poke holes through stuff early is a good way of keeping on track, but you don't necessarily have to disclose the full source code or disclose any changes as a result of the prototype until the next prototype. So in effect it has the benefits of open source and of keeping tight control of the code.

That looks pretty nice. Yeah, more clutter and dirtyness would be nice. It'd get boring if it was *all* grungy though. There need to be some relatively clean areas to contradict and add some spice. You know, I haven't even been paying attention to see what FM authors are doing with the T3 editor. Are they opening up new and exciting functionalities with it? Any "one level" missions out yet?

Yes, not many castles were built in the Victorian era, but there were (and still are) quite a lot of mediaeval-made castles still in use, so it wouldn't affect the Victorian thematic setting to have a castle robbing mission, and castles do make for interesting missions... As for water arrows, they are a gameplay device invented to make it possible for the player to remotely remove light sources, and while it was never explicitly explained as being magical in nature, you can make the assumption that they were magic arrows, since you would need an arrow with a water crystal the size of a large bucket to do the job in RL, not to mention the technical problems of transporting and launching such an arrow, or the AI's response to the large puddle of water underneath a torch that has mysteriously been extinguished... They are just alltogether unrealistic... Personally, I rarely use water arrows in Thief to extinguish lights, I find it more enjoyable to leave them lit, and to find another way around guards. Holy water arrows are nice for Zombies though, when you have run out of flash bombs. While I am not opposed to a fantasy setting that involves the presence of magic per se, I dislike it when magic is used to explain away something that would otherwise be impossible, and is merely a cheap device to make the player feel like they are getting more value by having more weapons/tools in their inventory. And I am not too keen on TDM being a carbon copy of Thief, I would rather it strikes out on it's own path, and not cling on to too many Thief-isms. While I really like the way Thief had so many anachronisms, and a world that was strangely immersive in spite of numerous plausibility problems, I think it would be a mistake for TDM to emulate it too closely. It is fine to make the inspiration for TDM fairly obvious, but it would be better IMO if it went off on it's own tangent with those elements inspired by Thief. And I can't imagine a setting as dark or gritty as 19th Century England, with smoggy, grimy industrialism in full flight, dark crowded streets, backing up against elaborate Victorian mansions, and lordly castles left over from earlier times... Putting out lights, whether torch, electric gas or otherwise, should always alert the AI in some way - level designers should make it unnecessary to extinguish lights to complete the mission, and putting out lights should have its own risks. If you can douse torches, why not throw rocks at electric lights? Gas lamps would presumably have a valve to switch them off when not needed, so why not let the player frob them to turn them off? The player should be able to turn them off, but the AI should become suspicious of this. Another idea - turn off a gas light, then tun the gas back on without lighting it, then after some time has past, a patrolling guard notices it, goes to light it, and Kaboom! the guard is engulfed in a big fireball. Could be a useful way for the thief to divert guards attention away to another area, allowing the player to burgle away while the guards are occupied putting a fire out...

Well, perhaps magical torches? burn with a different flame colour for that eerie feeling. How about a lighter? I don't think it would be terribly hard for a hammerite or mechanist (or any other mechanically inclined individual) to create a lighter of sorts. They had the gas lamps in thief 2. Or you could make the lighter magical, though it wouldn't be much of a difference. Thinking about fire, would it be going too far to make a semi realistic fire system? where fire can spread (given fuel). I'd like to see missions where the player goes in to steal something and uses a fire as cover to escape or something like it. And it would be cool seeing fire arrows set the guards clothing alight and them running about screaming, trying to find water or something to put it out. or the player being traped in a burning building and needing to stumble his way through the flames and smoke to escape. The only problem is that if you were to make it realistic in terms of buildings burning down, well that obviously puts a huge strain on modeling a building, and could also unbalance the game with the player going pyromaniac on the mission. And IMO flames as currently rendered in games today are pretty crapily done, and from what i can tell a particle system that does fire justice would suck alot of cycles, so it would either chug or look like shit. Just for a bit of a giggle factor if the lights are out both the player and any human guards should have big trouble seeing and hitting each other, any sound should give the player (or the guards) position away (so guards try to be quiet as well). on the nightvision stuff, in Dungeons and Dragons there are a few things creatures/characters can have to improve their vision/detection: Low light vision - light is amplified. Dark vision - magical, can see in total darkness but only in greyscale. True seeing - magical, everything looks as though it's lit by candle light and there are no shadows, the characters eye's glow and no creature in line of sight can hide from them. Scent - obviously for creatures with a good sense of smell, ie dogs. but it could add that little bit extra to the game, like guard dogs, if you come close enough they will be able to smell you even if they can't see you and start seeking you out. Perhaps it could be possible to add those as something a mission maker can enable with specific magic items or on other creatures/guards/NPC's as default. ah shit i ranted again...

Fair enough. In that vein have you an opinion on Fear? It seems, to me, to be a mix of shooter, action adventure and a movie, as its set in a 24 hour time frame iirc Then there is the games Im looking forward to Alan wake, horror action adventure and Bioshock, which I cant find much on at all. Ill get oblivion for the mod tools but I cant see it being more than fedex missions with pretty ai and graphics. All the elder scrolls games have been like that after all. Ive never played a gothic game so I cant really comment on 3 but the screens look nice.