Radiant wiki and modeling

[Bikerdude]

Don't know if this is of any interest, but found this my accident when looking up what a dds file was in google :-)

 

http://www.katsbits....s_utilities.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/GtkRadiant

[Fidcal]

Now that looks like a good tutorial at a glance. How I wish I had time...

 

What I want is a groundhog year machine. Switch it on at the start of any particular year and you can relive that year over and over until you flip the machine again. Only your memories, skills, and experience are carried over so you could learn to play the piano in a second of 'real time' but if you wrote a book it would be lost at year restart unless you memorised it. But anyway, you couldn't preserve an FM or a model but you could take a year to learn Blender pretty good then resume 'real life'. Is this off topic? Just go back to January 1st. No consequences...

[Baddcog]

The md5 export is good for animated objects.

Then you have to deal with AF bodies in doom3 for collision/ragdolls (can be a quite painful experience)

 

 

The ase export is good for static stuff. Alot easier and can be editted with notepad+ (for linux compatibility - regular notepad does something funky I guess)

---------

 

There's also an Anim8or ase exporter out there, so people have a few choices for free modelling software.

[Fidcal]

So... you're recommending Blender over Lightwave? And is Anim8or useable for Dark Mod purposes? It is used for low res Thief models I know.

 

My only interest at this time is a really good tutorial, an idiot's guide that I can follow blindly and produce a crate or something that simple and texture it and get it to work in Dark Mod in one day or less. Is that even possible?

[Baddcog]

I can show you how to make an animated cube in Max in one hour or less

 

Blender is free, lightwave I don't know. I think mostly it comes down to personal preference. I used Max for along time so I don't want to learn a new program.

 

Anim8or does have an ase exporter, so for most people it will work (static objects). I have posted the link here (in modelling forum) and at TTLG in the 'learn to Anim8or' thread. Which is kindof also a tut on Anim8or. Quite a few people use it so it can't be that bad.

I don't see any reason it would be any worse at models for TDM than T2. Sure, TDM models can be higher poly, but any program can have more polies.

Anim8or might not be able to bake normal maps, but those can be done in photoshop with a hieght map, can be baked in Doom3 with a model, etc...

 

In fact I think Sluggs (TTLG Anim8or thread http://www.ttlg.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=83285&highlight=Anim8or) did a crate tutorial with it so the only thing different is exporting to .ase instead of .3ds. And of course material file.

.ase can be edited with notepad+ for material file.

[Fidcal]

I looked earlier and Max was £3500 - not even to be considered by anyone but commerce or a real enthusiast.

 

Anim8or I followed the tutorial some years ago to make an eggplant and what I saw emerging was not the same as the tutorial image by image. So I restarted three times thinking I'd made a mistake. In the end I gave up and posted in that ttlg thread you mentioned. Far as I know it's still waiting an answer. In fact now I recall a year before that I made a special bottle I needed for my FM but couldn't see how to texture it. I think that question is also still there in that thread. I don't recall Sluggs crate tutorial. Maybe that would've been better.

 

I had a bad start with Lightwave and could find no demos included and found it so non-intuitive I gave up after giving up a non-productive morning to it.

 

Which leaves Blender. Do I risk wasting a day on it.

 

I don't know what baked means but if you mean Doom can produce a normal map automatically from a model then that sounds useful. Hard to see how though.

[rich_is_bored]

Modeling in general has a steep learning curve. I'd recommend Blender on the basis that it's free and the community is huge. You'll be able to export both static (ASE) and animated models (MD5). You should have no trouble getting questions answered if you run into trouble.

 

Two sites worth checking out...

 

http://www.blendercookie.com/

 

http://guerrillacg.org/

 

I recommend visiting the latter first as it covers fundamentals that will be applicable regardless what modeling package you choose. The former has a good number of free quality video tutorials specific to Blender.

[Fidcal]

OK, thanks. Bookmarked for now. Maybe I'll find one hour a week ... but not this week unfortunately. I'll probably also need a guide to anything specific to Dark Mod - but that can come later and I'll check the wiki first.

[Tels]

OK, thanks. Bookmarked for now. Maybe I'll find one hour a week ... but not this week unfortunately. I'll probably also need a guide to anything specific to Dark Mod - but that can come later and I'll check the wiki first.

 

As far as I understand it, it is very easy. First you install the software, then model your model, then uvmap it, texture it, export it and then your add it to the game and then you are all set. Easy-peasy.

 

The first step can be done in about two days, depending one which libraries you need, which system you have and into what difficulties you run with custom-compiling the libxml2blargphph-python-late-binding-dev lib you inevitable need so you can install the gui-featureless-x package, which you need for some obscure menu-rendering package, which isn't even used, but can't be left off, anyway.

 

The other steps are slightly more complicated, but not much. Experienced computer technicians with a deep understanding of late-binding compiler technology, and fluent in Italien, XML and Python-over-SOAP might be done in no time, granted that they take the 8-hours-every-2-days tutorials linked above.

 

This way you can expect to have your first crate model (a simple box) in game in about 6 months, give or take a month.

 

Why, I myself plan to model a simple boxy table next year. It will be the rage.

[Fidcal]

This is why I am so hesitant.

[Springheel]

From everything I've seen, .ase models are a pain in the ass to work with. I couldn't believe the amount of fuss that was required in blender to move those door hinges out a couple milimeters. In Lightwave it took about 3 seconds.

[SneaksieDave]

Aside from the import/export steps of ASE (which last I checked require a custom script; devs, can we get native support please some day?) there's really no issue as far as I know. You can still all the same stuff (and IIUC more? something about smoothing) and then just export as ASE and change the material name. If you've messed it up, you can change it again because it's plain text. <shrug>

 

I guess both have their advantages and drawbacks, the main ones for ASE being the import/export and material naming.

[Baddcog]

I'd say go with anim8or and just work through it, there are tuts other than just the TTLG thread.

 

At some point if you want to do it you'll have to work through the learning curve no matter what program you use. Max is easy for me because I've used it for years. I think I've tried Blender, XSI, Lightwave, Wings... But none were as intuative to me so I stuck with what I know.

 

Tel's wrote that up like a programmer, I have no idea what he even said, a crate 6 months?

 

----------Baking can be tough, best to start out with something that doesn't need baked like a crate---------

Baking is having 2 models. One high poly and one lower poly for game use. The higher poly has all the little details that will show up in the normal map/ ambient occlusion map in a game. Basically you export them at the same coordinates and then bake them with another program like Doom3 (console commands) or X-Normal. It bakes the details from the highpoly onto the low polys UV map and makes a normal map.

This can be tough but can also be 'faked' or done in other ways.

 

you can paint a greyscale height map in Photoshop and turn that into a normal map with plugins. You can copy/paste existing ones.

For example, you want a wood crate. A crate is a pretty simple model, no reason to wast time doing a highpoly version with boards and wood grain. Just cut up a wood plank diffuse and normal map and apply them to the crate.

 

My metal chest I made high poly sections (top, front, side) and baked them to a flat plane with Doom3, I copy/pasted metal and wood diffuse and normals from TDM textures, then overlayed, traced whatever to fit my baked normals. At the time I felt it was easier then baking 2 models for the normal map...

------------

The main issue with .ase files is that only some programs export them, and fewer import them.

 

It's a 3dsmax native exporter, but nobody has made an importer past Max 5, so having to instal max 5 just to import is a pain.

Better just to re-export from the source file.

 

The doors were a pain for Springheel because I had the Max source files and should've just done them but I was frustrated at the time... And he did them before I did, obviously he must've had to use Blender to do it.

From what I've heard is Blender is a real pain in the butt, non-intuative program unless you know it well. So if you don't know it well even a simple task can be a pain.

 

But I could say the same about lwo's. If I had to use lightwave to change one it would be a major hassle for me.

 

So .ase's aren't hard to work with, they are hard to import into a program that's easy to work with.

 

Other than that they are easy to edit with notepad+. In fact when I need to add a shadow or collision, I can export that seperately, copy/paste it into the model instead of rexporting the whole thing, that can't be done with lwo's.

[Fidcal]

The Blender features pages includes 3D studio in the file types (which I assume to mean Max) but can it import them? If there were say an existing ase file (which I interpret as ascii export from Max) can Blender import, process and spew it out again?

 

I also see Lightwave listed in Blenders filetypes so does the same apply there?

 

Can Lightwave handle ase files?

 

I miss the ability to easily resize models that we had in Dromed. I use the hack a lot where possible. I'd really like to be able to resize models as needed. How easy is that and can both Blender and Lightwave do this easily?

[Serpentine]

Ani2Pov and other Assimp based apps(not that I know of any that support exporting ) are pretty good at swapping formats around - not too sure about materials tho

[Springheel]

And he did them before I did, obviously he must've had to use Blender to do it.

 

No, I exported them as .obj files and then used LW. I don't have Blender.

 

I miss the ability to easily resize models that we had in Dromed. I use the hack a lot where possible. I'd really like to be able to resize models as needed. How easy is that and can both Blender and Lightwave do this easily?

 

That's what I started doing to learn how to use Lightwave...just resizing existing models. It's extremely easy. You click one button and drag your mouse. And most of our models are .lwo, so if you're interested in working with our already existing meshes (the best way to learn, IMO), then you'll want something that can read/save that format (maybe Blender can, I don't know).

[Baddcog]

I couldn't believe the amount of fuss that was required in blender to move those door hinges out a couple milimeters. In Lightwave it took about 3 seconds.

 

 

That led me to believe you had Blender, my bad.

 

Yeah, from what I've heard Blender is all about keyboard shortcuts. I prefer menu's for most stuff myself.

[rich_is_bored]

If Wine is good enough for Lightwave and 3DSMAX then it's good enough for Blender if need be. Maya is the only other modeling application I know of that offers a Linux build. I think it's a good thing that Blender does as well but you can't please everyone.

 

Importing/exporting has caveats in all modeling applications. If it worked flawlessly they'd call it saving/loading. That said 3DS, LWO, MD5, and ASE can be imported/exported to/from Blender although I would recommend avoiding binary formats as they leave you no way to be 100% certain of the results short of owning a copy of whatever program natively supports them.

 

The UI in Blender has been completely overhauled in the recent 2.5 alpha release so everyone who's tried Blender needs to try it again. Things have greatly improved. Keyboard shortcuts are still a big part of using the program but it's entirely customizable. You have a "tool shelf" where you can add buttons for any operation you like. You can move things around. You can change the shortcuts.

 

But that said, if all you plan on doing is scaling static models, Blender, Lightwave, 3DSMAX, etc... are all overkill which might have something to do with why people find it confusing. I've never heard of Anim8or. It may be better suited to the task.

Edited January 23, 2010 by rich_is_bored

[Baddcog]

http://www.jasonotto.net/tutorials/crate/crate.html

 

sluggs crate tut, shows how to texture a cube basically. modelling gets more complex from there but once you figure out the basics you can apply those techniuqes to more complex items.

[Tels]

Tel's wrote that up like a programmer, I have no idea what he even said, a crate 6 months?

 

It was supposed to be a joke...

 

However:

 

----------Baking can be tough, best to start out with something that doesn't need baked like a crate---------

Baking is having 2 models. One high poly and one lower poly for game use. The higher poly has all the little details that will show up in the normal map/ ambient occlusion map in a game. Basically you export them at the same coordinates and then bake them with another program like Doom3 (console commands) or X-Normal. It bakes the details from the highpoly onto the low polys UV map and makes a normal map.

This can be tough but can also be 'faked' or done in other ways.

 

That step alone requires good modelling skills (no good creating a high-poly model if you haven't skill to do that). (It is like sculptors teaching sculpting: "just remove everything non-lion and you end up with a lion". Yeah, if you know how to

 

you can paint a greyscale height map in Photoshop

 

If you know how to...

 

and turn that into a normal map with plugins.

 

And have the plugins and know how to use them. Last time I spent an entire afternoon chasing things and doing this, only to end up with an unusable (because crappy) normalmap.

 

You can copy/paste existing ones.

For example, you want a wood crate. A crate is a pretty simple model, no reason to wast time doing a highpoly version with boards and wood grain. Just cut up a wood plank diffuse and normal map and apply them to the crate.

 

"Just" is "easy" right?

 

It continues along these lines, the guys wo know how to do it say "oh it is easy" and then mention 10 steps, where I have in half of them not even one idea how to do them or with what program..

 

From what I've heard is Blender is a real pain in the butt, non-intuative program unless you know it well.

 

Problem for me is that Blender is basically the only thing for linux....

[Fidcal]

Absolutely agree. It's all about having good info which is rare because writing that is an art in itself. Every day I'm faced with decisions about how best to use my precious time so I take care before starting anything new.

[Baddcog]

Well, more people can handle a photo program than a 3d program (or at least have experience in that area) so reusing existing wood diffuse and normal maps IS easier than creating your own. It's also an easy way to match existing resources while making a simple object look better.

 

But it really all comes down to how much time is spent to learn, improve, etc... and willingness. I could probably learn how to program on some level, but I am not willing at all to go through the painful experience of learning it just so I can try something simple.

In imo I do believe modelling is easier than programming, but I've always been into art. Someone who is into math/languages and not art probably feels just the opposite.