Slash tapestries?

[jaxa]

I'm divided on the slash-able banner issue.

 

Nice thread.

 

If you check out my bug report low priority feature request I also mention webs and boards. So I basically asked for "flat", slashable destructables. It's not impossible to do this, but I imagined something where the object could be dropped in and the in-game physics would handle its destruction. There is no question that this is a throwback to Thief. I myself would slash every damn banner I saw... ghosting/power looters would be turned off by this feature if it was loot mandatory or didn't result in gameplay consequences.

 

1. If you see banners or etc. in a mission, they generally simply block the player.

2. If a range of objects could be made slashable, it's not necessary for every slashable object mechanism to be based on complete obstruction of the player view.

3. If you're able to frob highlight the banner, bricks, whatever, it makes it too easy to figure out and removes the consequences: noise and debris.

4. It gives the sword a purpose outside of combat that allows more world interaction. This interaction isn't very hard to figure out in the case of cobwebs and other loose blocking objects.

5. It's fun to destroy do bad things.

 

There's a lot of ways to go about using these objects, for example, frobbing to roll up tapestries that are hanging on a dowel (frob highlight is suggestive, but doesn't necessarily prove there is something behind it and doesn't cause much noise). For mappers, maybe the sword fulfills explicitly stated objectives like busting a certain pipe for sabotage or something. In summary, I don't want to waste team but do want to highlight a potentially fun aspect of the Thief games that is missing in TDM (or the maps, if you're saying you can script it).

[demagogue]

It's not impossible to do this, but I imagined something where the object could be dropped in and the in-game physics would handle its destruction.

 

In case you missed it: this is handled by a func_damageable. It takes literally 2 seconds for a mapper to select a func_static and covert the class to func_damagable (or create entity -> darkmod -> func -> func_damageable on a selected brush). Voila. Different spawnargs you put on it will make it damageable in different ways. There's a link earlier in the thread to the wiki page where it's all listed out, and on your bug entry as a comment.

[Springheel]

But the difference between the whole thing highlighting & just a corner is that you could just be running along the edge of a hallway and the whole thing could light up like Chinese New Year. But if it was just a corner, then you'd have to actually look at the corner to see.

 

I agree that having them light up when the player isn't actually 'searching' them is a bad idea, but I'd rather see a very small frob distance than force the player to look all over the banner for the "secret area" that actually lights up. They both accomplish the same thing (reduce the chance of froblighting by accident), but having to target a specific corner of the banner wouldn't be very intuitive to me.

[Bikerdude]

but I'd rather see a very small frob distance than force the player to look all over the banner for the "secret area" that actually lights up.

+1

[demagogue]

I don't think it'd be "secret". It's the same corner or edge every time; after one experience players know where it is and aren't searching for it. It's true they'd have to get over to it, but if you were curling up a banner you'd have to position yourself to curl up the corner or bottom IRL too. It's intuitive in the sense that it's the actual edge you're frobbing that you're pulling aside, and when you've seen it once you expect it. Because banners are big things, you could have situations (will full highlight) like being on top of a balcony and crouch down to one on the wall below you, or it's over a ledge and you can only reach the left side, frob it, and then the bottom-right corner curls up. Frobbing the actual part you're moving sounds a little more intuitive than frob anywhere & one part moves. But I'm willing to see prototypes of both in-game to see which feels better. I'm not just trying to be contrarian; just trying to get out my intuition.

[Baddcog]

I like the small area frob simply for the purpose of keeping the entire banner from highlighting, just because they are so large. And in the same vein I'd be just as happy to only have doorknobs or chest lids highlight. Just because highlighting is 'ugly' so the larger the object the uglier it is, lol.

 

Though in the past I think I was more for having the entire chest highlight as one item rather than the piece by piece thing it does currently.

 

I might play with it a little just because I'm curious to see how the lit hand print would look. Won't take long as I already have a handprint ready to go for a marker decal.

[Springheel]

A handprint? I like that even less than a generic corner or edge. It sounds like something you'd see in a console game.

[Baddcog]

Yeah well I don't expect it to get used, I just think it would be cool. And I could probably name a hundred PC adventure games that you see stuff like that in...

 

But it would look better imo than a triangle or square lighting up. It would look cleaner and more polished. It could just as well be an alpha circle, or even a 'haze', just a broad area that gets lighter without showing off the models tris.

[demagogue]

I'll stick with: I'd be happy to see a few prototypes of different ideas in-game (or a video to watch) and see which one feels best. So much depends on how the different kinds of highlighting actually look & work for typical players playing, whether it feels "right" when you discover there's something behind it, like you should get a nice feeling of satisfaction & discovery that the mechanic doesn't cheat you out of, and what the actual animation is (something to discuss independently anyway) -- is it like the side being pulled aside, the corner being lifted, rolled up from the bottom (edit: & for these last 3, how do you hold it in place, or is it like a door with an 'open' & 'closed' static state frob-toggled, and what'd keep it in the open state, or what if the player moves back, a pin, a big knot? Or maybe it's in an open state until the player frobs again or he moves away and it falls back into place automatically, as if his hand were holding it up; actually that sounds best), or is it like a ragdoll you can pull around (sounds glitchy), quietly pulled off its hinges and it folding to the ground (not too different from just slashing it, leaves evidence, but it's quieter) [edit: these last two I'm just putting in for the record, since I think we're talking about one of the 1st 3 options]. The last two things sound better with the whole thing being highlighted. For the first three, it could go either way and I'd want to see how the whole highlight looks compared to just the edge you're moving aside looks.

 

For the record, I don't think the whole thing highlighting is ugly, just that the highlighting should communicate function & fit the gameplay. And for a door, the function of a door is to open, but for a banner it's function is to sit on a wall & do nothing, but if a corner can be lifted having it highlight makes sense. That and I wouldn't want the highlight to give away the banner's secret too readily compared to very purposefully directing yourself to checking if there's a secret, when the whole point is hiding a secret. Seeing some videos of the thing in action would help get a feel for that. I think I've said my opinion enough times now lol, so you know what I mean.

[i30817]

what about size? I'm imagining a comical situation where a whole wall tapestry is marked thus, and the thief frobs its enourmous highlight corner, leading to a effect like if the ghostly hand of galactus pulled the thing, scatering ai, tables and the player.

 

sigh... little big world

Edited February 14, 2012 by i30817

[Baddcog]

Well, the purpose of the banner is to hide a secret, just like a lever. But just becasue a banner is 20'x20 doesn't mean it's going to be 'easy to spot'. Sure it's easier to see as an object than a lever. But it's truly the frob distance that makes it easy to spot or not.

 

How many times do you walk up to a banner and look at it while playing? probably never. Even if it frob highlights you have to be looking at the sweet spot and within the radius. So say the banner is 6 feet wide and the frob zone is 1 foot by 1 foot. You'd have to be basically centered on the banner and no more than 12" away looking straight at the center to highlight. So from across the hall, or seeing it right next to your head as you are looking down the hall, etc... it's not going to highlight.

In fact it think if someone hides a secret behind a banner they pretty much need to leave some kind of clue.

 

I'll try and work up a small demo that I can upload, playing is better than video anyway. But I won't get into anymating it, just have it frob highlight and move like a sliding door so the whle distance thing can be played with.

 

For the animation i think sliding down the pole is best, just like a curtain. All the banners are on rings on rods so it makes sense. New banners would be easy to spot.. The secret ones would need to look exactly like the rest.

Sliding it makes sense because like a door, the player can use it and leave it in a rested open or closed state and it's natural.

 

If the corner lifted, or just pulled away like the player was doing it when they walked away it would look odd. Or it could auto close, but that's based on timing. Ever have a door autoclose in your face, annoying. Or what if the banner corner just hangs mid-air for 5 seconds, then closes.

 

Plus a lifting corner might give enough space for a small cubby hole, but what about a doorway/secret passage...

 

Using physics instead of anims would work too. Just like a ragdoll, you grab a bone and pull it. I'm pretty sure that if the object isn't pick upable then it would be locked down. So pull the corner would just lift the corner. The main thing is you'd pull the corner away and let go to grab what was behind it it would fall back in your face. Since we don't have two handed mechanics it might just feel buggy.

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edit @ i30817, If it turned out comical it wouldn't make it into the mod for sure.

[i30817]

I meant it would be a funny thing to add to a hypothetical little big world mission.

 

Think about a animation that pulls the tapestry. Now increase the tapestry size to little big world levels. Hell, maybe it could be a "elevator" if it opened outwards and touched a surface where the player could climb the (decreasing) gradient before falling off. That would be a funny puzzle.

[Fidcal]

I support demagogue's views on this. No highlight and test to see what works best as far as position and size of sweet spot. Pushing a barrel or large crate to one side has no highlight and would be similar gameplay.

 

If you're playing TDM properly you should be looking behind and under furniture wherever you can anyway. This is the same idea. Stand on a chair to look on top of wardrobe. Push banner to one side. Crouch to look under cabinet.

 

I guess ideally the slash with sword as well so both work. As mentioned, hitting a wall in TDM makes a sound whereas it didn't in Thief unless it was a model. It would be an alternate fun gameplay for those who want it yet not annoy those who prefer the other method. I think the gameplay fun overrides the RL unlikeliness or absurdity if you insist - but no worse than the absurdity of rope arrows. Probably a samurai sword would easily slash a thin banner so I have no problem stretching my belief from that.

 

Be nice to have a test map to see what works best.