Light Entity changes

[Springheel]

I notice that from 1.07 to 1.08, this lamp in Seige Shop has changed from yellow to blue. It also looks like the light radius has changed. Is there a good justification for this? As a mapper I would be rather annoyed if the colours of my lights changed completely from one update to the next.

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I mentioned that color change several times already:

 

1- it is for a bit more variation in the lighting in TDM. Probably should have been like that from the start.

I noticed when I made the test map EVERY single light in game is yellow.

 

2- These are 'newer' lamps in the game world so I thought the 'brighter' color would be a good fit.

 

I don't believe I changed the radius at all.

 

While color shift is a slight change in a map it is hardly a breaking change. But radius would be a breaking change, hence I didn't change that at all.

 

Of course this change was made (and mentioned at least 2-3 times when it was done) before the big hub bub about mappers thinking their 'artistic vision' would be compromised with different fire particles. So I really didn't think changing the color once for a better player experience for the rest of time would be a big deal.

But after the fire particle debacle I can see this being some major compromise that would completely destroy the artistic vision of an author (where as if they were blue to begin with that would be what all authors wanted as all they did was drop entities into their map anyway, they didn't actually choose that light model based on it being a yellow light - as all lights are yellow)

[Springheel]

Yeah, I mentioned that color change several times already:

 

I know you talked about making blue lights, but I didn't realize that was changing lights that were already in use.

 

So I really didn't think changing the color once for a better player experience for the rest of time would be a big deal.

 

What argument is there for a color change creating a "better player experience"? Colour choices are subjective by nature. Some mappers might like the blue better (I do, in fact, at least in the above example) but other mappers may have chosen the light specifically to fit into a colour scheme for their map.

 

My proposal: Use grayman's script to see how many maps are using these entities. If there aren't very many, we can just ask the affected authors if they are okay with it, and if so, leave things as they are.

 

If the mappers aren't okay with it or there are too many, we keep the original look and make an alternate blue set.

 

Do you have a list of which entities changed colour?

[Baddcog]

It's

lamp_wall_electric (that one)

lamp_wall_sphere

streetlamp_01

streetlamp_sphere

..._double

..._spotlight

 

They all use the same textures (and share many pieces of the model), so they all appear to be manufactured at same time/place

 

And to me they seem more 'modern' than the originals. Or more fancy. Melan has used them, I think Sotha used them outside his first map, they haven't see a lot of use so far.

 

Typically the older, darker, dirtier ones are more frequently used. They fit in better with older dirtier streets.

-----------

 

I just thought it gives a better 'play experience' because there is some variety. Everyone likes pretty scenes and whatnot..

So this just helps differentiate areas.

 

The sphere ones are more of a 'mage' thing imo. I think the blue light is a bit spooky looking.

[New Horizon]

Authors of ant affected maps may not agree with the change. There is no issue with adding variants, but changing them in already existing maps might be unpopular.

[Tels]

Authors of ant affected maps may not agree with the change. There is no issue with adding variants, but changing them in already existing maps might be unpopular.

 

Agreed.

[Springheel]

Grayman, would you be able to run these through your script and see which ones are already used?

 

lamp_wall_electric (that one)

lamp_wall_sphere

streetlamp_01

streetlamp_sphere

..._double

..._spotlight

[Baddcog]

Well, I know Melan for example prefers a whiter light so he's already made the change.

 

But here we go again... Are a few authors REALLY going to get worked up because a few lights hues changed?

Do we really want EVERYTHING to have that sickly yellow color? it's starting to make my eyes bleed.

 

Thief 2 had white gaslights and sewer lamps at least.

 

So far we have two non mappers stating how mappers will feel

 

I have a feeling this will go just like the last round. Everyone decides I am wrong for no reason other than to argue stupid points. Everyone voted against what they stated they wanted, it's really starting to be a freaking joke imo and I'm ready to bow out.

[Tels]

Baddcog, the point isn't that we need light diversity (we need it), nor that the whitish light looks bad (it's fine), the point is that it changes existing maps in quite a certain way and this change might be perceived as "unnecc. and bad".

 

The minimum we need to do is to ask the mappers if they are ok with that change - if we make the change, and one author is unhappy, we lose more than we gain. (It's a PR desaster)

[Springheel]

But here we go again... Are a few authors REALLY going to get worked up because a few lights hues changed?

 

Yes, they might. Some mappers pick the colours of their lights with specific effects in mind. You already mentioned Melan as someone who chooses his lights to achieve a particular effect.

 

Do we really want EVERYTHING to have that sickly yellow color?

 

We can add as many different colours of lights as you like. And mappers will use the ones they prefer. I don't see the problem.

 

So far we have two non mappers stating how mappers will feel

 

Actually, the two "non mappers" just said it "might" be unpopular.

[New Horizon]

I may not have officially released anything yet, but I certainly have built a few small maps over the last few years...so I'm not stranger to mapping.

 

There is no problem 'adding' new colour definitions to the existing lights for variety, but changing the default light colours so that any existing map that uses them will also be changed has always been considered a no-no. Just because a mapper didn't have the choice between yellow and white lights when they built there map doesn't give us the right to assume they would have chosen them now.

[Springheel]

I happened to be testing Knighton Manor, and there are a number of these used in the outside part of the manor.

[Sotha]

If Springheel considers the change an improvement and it does not affect gameplay, I do not mind. I cannot test how it affects things, but I trust his discretion for what is good for the mod.

[Bikerdude]

If Springheel considers the change an improvement and it does not affect gameplay, I do not mind. I cannot test how it affects things, but I trust his discretion for what is good for the mod.

+1

[Springheel]

Ok, grayman gave me a list of which maps used the above models/entities. I've reverted the square streetlamp and the square wall lamp (the original image above) to the original yellow texture. There were many maps using the static mesh with a separate light attached, and it looked silly having a yellow light coming from a blue lamp model.

 

I created an alternate skin and entity for the blue version, so mappers can select the blue-white version going forward if they wish.

 

I did not change the models that were not used at all, and I did not change the sphere lights which were used in only a couple maps.

[Tels]

Great Springheel!

[Baddcog]

doing some mapping and just noticed all the torch versions are in the entity list (ie: lit and unlit versions)

 

I see a few people made 'light entity changes' on SVN but it doesn't specify.

 

Was just wondering if this was done on purpose or maybe I just hadn't organized them. (Would hate to organize them and just have it undone).

-----

As always we have to recap everything or the discussion starts over so...

 

all lights were organized so only LIT versions were in the list. Since typically authors want a lit light. It only takes one tick in the properties to start a light off (start_lit or extinguished).

[Springheel]

I did some work on the light entity list, but I don't recall intentionally adding unlit torches.

[Baddcog]

hmm, quite possible they weren't deprecated or that I did it last and that wasn't uploaded. I hate having multiple installs, makes it too confusing. After hard drive/computer fixes I fired up DR the other day and found a bunch of weird stuff and realized I was working out of a 3rd install 8P - it was somewhere in between svn and 1.08 (maybe i dunno)

[Baddcog]

note to self : unless I never get to it...

 

Need to add entity for model : models/darkmod/lights/non-extinguishable/simple_square1_unattached.lwo

 

(appears to not have one