Unconscious guards waking up

[MirceaKitsune]

I assume this should already be possible... but I haven't seen it enabled in any missions so far, and was curious how to do it. Is there a way to make guards which are knocked out (not killed) wake up after a given interval, and sound the alarm once they realize they've been blackjacked? Separately, can an NPC wake up an unconscious ally when (s)he sees one and checks the body?

[grayman]

There are no "get up from an unconscious position" animations, since a KO'ed AI becomes a ragdoll, which is subject to the laws of physics and can end up in an infinite number of positions.

 

Also, many players rely on KO'ed AI staying down; those are the folks who KO everyone in sight and then leisurely wander through the mission searching for loot and meeting their objectives. We would probably lose a lot of these types of players if KO'ed AI were brought back into the game later.

 

There were probably a number of design discussions early on about this (before my time), so there might be other reasons as well.

[grayman]

That having been said, a mapper can certainly simulate an AI that returns from a KO as long as it's done outside of the player's sight. The ragdoll could be removed and replaced with a conscious twin who then runs for an alarm.

 

But that's up to the mapper. TDM doesn't supply a standard way of doing this.

[MirceaKitsune]

I was actually wondering if animations for this exist. The ragdoll problem is obvious, but I was thinking that a workaround would be the "getting up" animation simply blending in from the position of the ragdoll during a few frames. AI's only waking up when outside of the player's sight could be another solution, but it would certainly introduce an unpleasant restraint.

 

Whether to enable this or not would obviously be the mission's choice. I can however imagine that some people wouldn't like the idea, since this does change gameplay a lot. There could additionally be an option for it too, but that could cause problems for mission designers instead. So yeah, not sure what to say there.

[Springheel]

This gets brought up on a regular basis. If you do a search for "waking" you'll probably find several discussions. The main argument against it is that guards waking up would simply encourage players to kill them, which goes against our design philosophy.

[nbohr1more]

I couldn't find the one I knew about but here are a few:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/2399-chloroform-and-blackjacks/

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/8719-why-dont-the-unconscious-ever-regain-consciousness-again/

[MirceaKitsune]

Yeah, I hope I didn't bring up something people are sick of hearing about. That's a risk with a lot of suggestions.

 

As for gameplay: I was thinking that instead, this could encourage players to hide the bodies better, and perhaps lock them away in places where they couldn't be found. In any case, we could make it so that only allied NPC's and / or the player can wake up someone unconscious... in which case it would only pose a risk if the body is found, which already implies a high alert level. I think this sounds like a more viable idea to me as well overall, but that's just my opinion.

[Springheel]

In any case, we could make it so that only allied NPC's and / or the player can wake up someone unconscious... in which case it would only pose a risk if the body is found

 

And how does that address the issue of encouraging the player to kill the AI instead?

[MirceaKitsune]

And how does that address the issue of encouraging the player to kill the AI instead?

 

Yeah, that is a good point. Usually I don't kill NPC's because I feel that knocking them unconscious is more professional and gives me better mission statics... same reason why I prefer avoiding a high alert level. And of course because I'm nice and prefer to avoid killing, but that's barely important There would probably need to be some reward for knockouts over killing, but it is indeed hard to think of a viable one.

[demagogue]

I think it could work ok for a specific AI for story reasons, and grayman already mentioned the best way, switch off screen with a replacement. A compromise might be to replace the AI offscreen with a sleeping twin in sleep pose on the ground and have that AI wake up.

 

You've been a barrel of schemes and ideas recently MK. I hope this means you've got building an FM in mind. Have you done the tutorial?

[Sotha]

I assume this should already be possible... but I haven't seen it enabled in any missions so far, and was curious how to do it. Is there a way to make guards which are knocked out (not killed) wake up after a given interval, and sound the alarm once they realize they've been blackjacked? Separately, can an NPC wake up an unconscious ally when (s)he sees one and checks the body?

 

Easy peasy. I experimented on it last year. Here is the result:

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/14969-sothas-animations/?p=323177

 

It is a scripting job.

[chakkman]

I think a player who usually knocks out guards won't be motivated to kill them, if allied A.I. would be able to wake them up, if they spot the bodies. There are numerous games which have that implemented, and it makes sense to me, as it requires you to hide the bodies where they can't be found. Killing or not killing A.I.'s for me is rather a pacifist or not consideration. Another interesting thing present in some games, Dishonored e.g. is the ability to hide the bodies in trash cans. Would be imaganable with chests or cupboards too. Unfortunately i never played a TDM mission which allows that. Not sure if it would be possible anyway, as i don't know how bodies are "thrown" in TDM. Maybe they wouldn't make it over the edge, when trying to put a body in a chest.

Edited December 28, 2014 by chakkman

[Springheel]

I think a player who usually knocks out guards won't be motivated to kill them, if allied A.I. would be able to wake them up, if they spot the bodies.

 

Why not? If the AI could be a future threat alive, but no threat at all dead, then how is that not an incentive to make sure they're dead?

 

there are numerous games which have that implemented

 

Really? What other stealth games do this? I'd like to see how they handle this. I heard Thief4 was supposed to do this although I haven't seen it happen myself.

 

 

as it requires you to hide the bodies where they can't be found.

 

The player is already strictly penalized for not hiding bodies.

 

My favourite place to hide them is sliding them under a bed. How would a "get up" animation work in that case, if an AI notices an arm sticking out?

[MirceaKitsune]

Really? What other stealth games do this? I'd like to see how they handle this. I heard Thief4 was supposed to do this although I haven't seen it happen myself.

 

One that instantly comes to mind for me is No One Lives Forever 2 (a great oldie). Like DeusEx, it wasn't strictly stealth oriented, but was heavily based on stealth as well. In either case, an ally would check every dead body when one was found; If unconscious it would wake the person up, otherwise it would swear revenge for the victim and sometimes melt the body away.

Edited December 28, 2014 by MirceaKitsune

[chakkman]

As far as i can remember, Splinter Cell and Commandos also had it. As for the decision to kill A.I.'s or not, i can only speak for myself, but the decision to knock them out instead of killing is rather one not to cause a blood bath, or in the case of servants, that no innocent has to die for a robbery. Dunno, if just feels more clean if you do knockouts instead of killing everyone in your path. Also probably comes from what Garrett says in the original Thief's "I am a thief, not a murderer." Also many FM's make it a requirement not to kill anyone on the highest or medium difficulty.

Edited December 28, 2014 by chakkman

[Springheel]

One that instantly comes to mind for me is No One Lives Forever 2

 

Don't know the game. Does it have death animations or ragdoll physics (a brief glance at a walkthrough video suggests the former)? Can you move bodies? Those two things are very important factors.

[MirceaKitsune]

Don't know the game. Does it have death animations or ragdoll physics (a brief glance at a walkthrough video suggests the former)? Can you move bodies? Those two things are very important factors.

 

Don't think so, it is a pretty old game (late 90's or early 00's). It was a (slightly comedic) stealth game, where you play as a female secret agent and travel to different countries, to defeat some evil organization.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_One_Lives_Forever_2:_A_Spy_in_H.A.R.M.%27s_Way

[chakkman]

As far as i can remember, in NOLF you could not move the bodies. There was some powder you could drop over the bodies which made them disappear. Spy gadgets ftw. In Splinter Cell you could move the bodies. Not sure what you mean with death animation?

[SteveL]

In Splinter Cell you could move the bodies. Not sure what you mean with death animation?

 

A ragdoll flopping to the ground leaves the body in a random pose, so hard to reanimate to get up again smoothly. A death animation could leave a body in a specific pose, so a get-up-again animation would have an easier time. Like you I remember that Splinter Cell Blacklist let you move bodies around as ragdolls and didn't have a problem letting other AI wake up your KO'd ones. One solution to that would be to have an intemediate roll-over manoeuvre whereby the KO'd ragdoll gets rolled onto its back and into a standard pose before the get-up animation takes over. I don't know how you'd handle solid stuff getting in the way though.

[Springheel]

If the AI play a standard death animation (like T2), then you know exactly what pose(s) they might wind up in, so it's much easier to make a believable animation of them getting up. And if you can't move bodies, it means AI will always wake up where they started. Both of those things makes the task of AI waking up significantly easier. Neither of those is the case in TDM, where a KO'd AI could wind up standing on its head inside a barrel....something of a challenge to reanimate.

[MirceaKitsune]

We could do one thing: Only allow unconscious guards to wake up if there's enough room for them to get in an acceptable pose, and of course to stand up. If there is, we could simply blend the model from the ragdoll pose back to the first frame of the getting up animation. Would smoothly blending from ragdoll to animated state be an issue?

[161803398874989]

Would smoothly blending from ragdoll to animated state be an issue?

Yes.

[SteveL]

Yes.

 

Yes, it would look like a puppet being pulled up by its strings, nothing like a body pushing itself up off the floor.

[VanishedOne]

We could do one thing: Only allow unconscious guards to wake up if there's enough room for them to get in an acceptable pose, and of course to stand up.

What happens if the player dumps an AI in a waist-high pit, so it can't pathfind its way out?

[SteveL]

What happens if the player dumps an AI in a waist-high pit, so it can't pathfind its way out?

 

If I still had SC Blacklist installed and if I weren't busy right now trying to find a way to combine normals for brush vertices, I'd have a look to see how they handled it. Not that I necessarily think we want this feature, but just out of curiosity how they did it. It's quite a hard problem to solve.