Nameless objects... a missed opportunity

[wesp5]

59 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Why do I have to shoulder entities to get to know their status (KO/dead), or their name (Mr Bad)?

That is actually a much more interesting feature in my opinion! I often pick up people I knocked out to see who they are. Can this be added to your mod or my patch just by changing some defs and then still work with all existing missions?

Edited August 7, 2023 by wesp5

[snatcher]

46 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

That is actually a much more interesting feature in my opinion!

 but

47 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Can this be added to your mod or my patch just by changing some defs and then still work with all existing missions?

There is a WIP script a few posts back that includes the feature already (along with other stuff) but I still have to make some decisions and test it to some extent before including in the Modpack for general use.

The solution doesn't touch any def or anything and theory says it should work in 99% of the situations. As usual, feel free to do with it what you please.

[datiswous]

I wonder if it could be useful for translation. So if you frob or hover your mouse on something it will show a translation, instead of translating everything in-game. This way the original shown text is preserved.

[snatcher]

Nameless Objects Mod v1.0

Description: this mod adds names to almost all core objects players can grab and hold in their hands.

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How to use:

As of this moment the Mod only works if you have "Core Essentials", which is included in TDM Modpack v4.0. Make sure to have "Core Essentials" and then download the *.pk4 attached to this post and place it in your TDM folder.

I try my best to provide stuff people can experience first hand to form an opinion. I suggest you try "Business as Usual" by Bikerdude since this mission includes quite a few items you can grab right at the beginning.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Technical:

The mod consists in a couple of def files and a script.

I had to include two defs because otherwise there can be issues related with inheritance. The script does most of the work and it will run in the background as soon as a mission starts. The script runs once but it takes its time (10 to 30 seconds) not to hinder performance. All this is transparent to you.

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Future:

I wouldn't like this to remain as a mod and I volunteer to add names to all core defs for 2.13. I would, of course, use the translation system so that names can be translated in the future to languages other than English. I can name all core defs in a couple of rainy mornings but the Development Team must guarantee this work won't go to waste.

The idea is that we name all core objects today and we let it stay: nothing changes in the source code and nothing gets displayed on screen. We get stuff done in the background and someday perhaps, all or part of it sees the light in some form.

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There are quite a few things that must be discussed and agreed before we get started but the first step is: yes or no.

People that might be interested in supporting and helping with this initiative: @datiswous, @Geep.

Cheers!

EDIT - The latest version can be found in the opening post.

 

Edited February 6 by snatcher

[Geep]

Interesting idea. Not sure about my upcoming time availability to help. A couple of concerns here -

- I assume the popup words uses the "Informative Texts" slot, e.g., where you might see "Acquired 80 in Jewels", so it likely wouldn't interfere with that or with already-higher subtitles.

- There are indications that #str is becoming unviable in FMs; see my just-posted:

https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22434-western-language-support-in-2024/

[snatcher]

13 minutes ago, Geep said:

- I assume the popup words uses the "Informative Texts" slot, e.g., where you might see "Acquired 80 in Jewels", so it likely wouldn't interfere with that or with already-higher subtitles.

There is the "acquired" slot and then there is the "shouldering" slot. Both look identical but are different entities. I am using the latter (shouldering) at this moment.

[Geep]

BTW, my concern about #str values is about those distributed in FM-specific .lang files.

For standard assets, where the info would be in tdm_base01.pk4/all.lang and its derivative .lang files, I guess that's less of a problem.

In that case, maybe, instead of using a #str_<number>, you could use a fixed prefix, like:

#str_shouldered_<english_name>

or
#str_moveable_<english_name>

That is, like #str_shouldered_chair

A general string like that might be used with multiple different chair models, as you intended.

If the author overrode the shouldered name with a non-#str name:

#str_shouldered_chair --> cushy chair with clue

then any translated general strings would be hidden, and just the English version shown.

[snatcher]

I agree with your observations.

3 hours ago, Geep said:

If the author overrode the [...] name [...]

That's the main point: to allow mappers to easily enrich a scene and/or tell little stories through useless objects. Players may or may not pick up an object though, therefore players must be trained (core objects must have default names).

[Geep]

BTW, the Perl script I18N.pl expects only an integer value after "#str_". Could be modified (or deprecated).

[wesp5]

Snatcher, so is this part of your modpack already or will it be integrated when most items have been named?

[snatcher]

It is not included in the Modpack. It is a little side project, that's all I know today.

You know the drill: do what you please with the stuff I release. And if you can make it better or different: do it!

[wesp5]

In my opinion this again strays a little too far from the original game, but it should certainly go into your modpack!

[snatcher]

Venturing beyond the base game...

A candle set consists of a candle holder and a candle attached to it. Core candle holders, candles and candle sets are properly named in v1.0 but mappers sometimes create their own candle sets and because of how these object are handled by the engine we end up with a "Candle holder" on screen.

We can approach this puzzle in different ways but for the sake of simplicity in v1.1 everything is a "Candle", including single candle holders.

Find v1.1 attached to this post. Remember you need the Core Essentials for the mod to work.

EDIT - The latest version can be found in the opening post.

 

Edited February 6 by snatcher

[snatcher]

Find v1.2 attached to this post:

• Capitalization of names consisting of multiple words, which kind of looks better
• Other minor changes

Remember you need the Core Essentials for the mod to work.

 

EDIT - The latest version can be found in the opening post.

 

Edited February 6 by snatcher

[MirceaKitsune]

My take on this, at least as far as what I feel vanilla TDM could do: Offer an option in the main menu to see the name of every held object that has the "name" spawnarg set. Currently this is only done for bodies, if you pick up a dead or unconscious person you'll see their name at the bottom of the screen... for players that want this I'd support the ability of displaying it for anything else.

Not sure how many of the default movables set it though. Like if every movable chair definition has "name Chair" configured. But that should be easy to solve in an update even if not, we just did subtitles for all AI barks so

[snatcher]

Well, if we ever want to see advanced HUD features we better start naming objects as soon as possible.

Addendum: OPTIONAL advanced HUD features.

[snatcher]

Almost eight months ago I volunteer to do this:

On 4/20/2024 at 7:50 PM, snatcher said:

I wouldn't like this to remain as a mod and I volunteer to add names to all core defs for 2.13. I would, of course, use the translation system so that names can be translated in the future to languages other than English. I can name all core defs in a couple of rainy mornings but the Development Team must guarantee this work won't go to waste.

The idea is that we name all core objects today and we let it stay: nothing changes in the source code and nothing gets displayed on screen. We get stuff done in the background and someday perhaps, all or part of it sees the light in some form.

The response has been overwhelmingly non existent.

I am surprised mappers aren't interested in enriching their stories through every day objects...

 

Perhaps we are not yet ready for such radical innovations.

[MirceaKitsune]

I'm definitely in favor of the idea. I just don't get what's missing: If you give any object the invName spawnarg, does the label not show when picking it up, is it only limited to bodies by default? This should be possible to do for all the default entities once the best way is identified.

[Bergante]

On 4/21/2024 at 8:25 PM, snatcher said:

I agree with your observations.

That's the main point: to allow mappers to easily enrich a scene and/or tell little stories through useless objects. Players may or may not pick up an object though, therefore players must be trained (core objects must have default names).

 I really love this idea !
to give more atmosphere to the scenerie - just by those little comments
mappers could bring pictures in the players mind in a simple way and without telling stories in long letter/books

so i feel sad about :

On 12/9/2024 at 8:11 PM, snatcher said:

The response has been overwhelmingly non existent.

I am surprised mappers aren't interested in enriching their stories through every day objects...

Maybe the mappers don't know anything about your project - yet ?
Is your  " mod "  part of TDM or Darkradiant ?
I think they're using what they know about - so maybe there's a need for a commercial - 
with instructions on how to use it - to train themself in how to use it

saddly i´m no mapper no scripter no programmer - so of no use 
but hope you´ll get what you asked for :

On 12/9/2024 at 8:11 PM, snatcher said:

but the Development Team must guarantee this work won't go to waste.

    

[snatcher]

23 hours ago, Bergante said:

mappers could bring pictures in the players mind in a simple way and without telling stories in long letter/books

This.

[snatcher]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:21 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

I'm definitely in favor of the idea. I just don't get what's missing: If you give any object the invName spawnarg, does the label not show when picking it up, is it only limited to bodies by default?

Limited to bodies (except with mods).

On 12/9/2024 at 11:21 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

This should be possible to do for all the default entities once the best way is identified.

That's the idea.

Edited December 12, 2024 by snatcher

[datiswous]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:11 PM, snatcher said:

I am surprised mappers aren't interested in enriching their stories through every day objects...

They might be, but not in a predefined way.

[snatcher]

 

On 4/20/2024 at 7:50 PM, snatcher said:

I wouldn't like this to remain as a mod and I volunteer to add names to all core defs for 2.13. I would, of course, use the translation system so that names can be translated in the future to languages other than English. I can name all core defs in a couple of rainy mornings but the Development Team must guarantee this work won't go to waste.

The idea is that we name all core objects today and we let it stay: nothing changes in the source code and nothing gets displayed on screen. We get stuff done in the background and someday perhaps, all or part of it sees the light in some form.

If I was an outsider it would feel a little disheartening to see that somebody volunteers to do something that has zero impact on the game today but the potential to bring interesting things in the future and the response is mostly silence.

[Frost_Salamander]

22 hours ago, snatcher said:

 

If I was an outsider it would feel a little disheartening to see that somebody volunteers to do something that has zero impact on the game today but the potential to bring interesting things in the future and the response is mostly silence.

I feel for you here, and sorry for only replying now.  I remember seeing this when you first posted and thought it looked interesting.

My 2 cents: I would welcome the feature for sure as it could indeed enhance things and create some possibilities, BUT:

• I'm not sure I would want all objects to be named by default.  I don't see the need for it and maybe this change is what's putting others off. Ideally existing maps wouldn't change.
• No menu item to toggle the feature.  No need to complicate it.
• As a mapper I would want just a single spawnarg to set if I want a name displayed.  Preferably a new one like 'display_name'.
• Not sure about the i18N stuff. I would be tempted to say don't worry about it or let it get in the way as its future seems uncertain, but I'm in no position to confirm that.

Maybe you can add a feature request in the bug tracker along with a patch (or whatever code is required) and we can try to get an internal conversation going about it?

[datiswous]

2 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

and we can try to get an internal conversation going about it?

What do you mean with internal conversation?

Edited January 9 by datiswous