Nameless objects... a missed opportunity

[snatcher]

EDIT - Please note there is a mod somewhere down this thread....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taffers,

It's a shame moveables didn't get a spawnarg for a proper name back in the day. Names could have added personality to the beautifully crafted moveables and exploring the world would have been way more interesting:

"ent_name" "Apple"
"ent_name" "Bottle of Wine"
"ent_name" "Medium Crate"
...

 

 

 

Mappers, of course, would have made use of this simple but nifty feature in a myriad of interesting ways

 

Adding a proper name when a new item is first introduced takes not time but we are now talking hundreds of nameless objects...

Oh well, as the saying goes: it never is too late! (or is it).

Edited April 20 by snatcher

[chakkman]

You definitely have too much spare time.

[snatcher]

You definitely sound bothered by it.

[Filizitas]

5 hours ago, chakkman said:

You definitely have too much spare time.

They might be crazy yes but i am generally always looking at the ideas and feedback! Its cool to see clever new ideas and enhancements, so that i can implement them in my own work!

[snatcher]

Far from crazy.

Just like with any other project we must start somewhere: settle on some basic rules and start naming core objects. The rest will evolve naturally.

5 people * 20 names per day (each) = 1000 assets in 10 days.

[Filizitas]

Wasnt this in the first or second thief game too? That objects had names? I think its a cool idea so i will keep it in mind!

[datiswous]

9 hours ago, snatcher said:

It's a shame moveables didn't get a spawnarg for a proper name back in the day. Names could have added personality to the beautifully crafted moveables and exploring the world would have been way more interesting

Movable entities have a name spawnarg. It just doesn't show up in the game. So I have no idea what you mean.

 

You propose an always active gui that lists the entity name when you point your cursor on it?

Edited August 5, 2023 by datiswous

[snatcher]

12 minutes ago, datiswous said:

Movable entities have a name spawnarg. It just doesn't show up in the game. So I have no idea what you mean.

I mean names you can display on screen for the general audience when holding an object. Refer to the screenshots I posted.

------------------------------------------------

I would say we should employ the language/translation system (#str_).

I expect most entityDef names (plus model names) are quite descriptive already:

• atdm:moveable_bowl_large_pewter (bowl01_large.lwo)
• atdm:moveable_mug_wood_old (mug_wooden01.lwo)
• atdm:moveable_ball_spiked (spiked_ball.lwo)
• atdm:moveable_coffeetable (coffeetable1.lwo)
• atdm:moveable_rock_small01 (smallrock1.lwo)
• ...

When in doubt just fire up DR and see the object in question.

Thinking of skins we should avoid including names of materials or colors, in example instead of a "Red Apple", stick to "Apple". Instead of "Pine Chair", let's name it a "Chair". Many times it will be difficult to settle on a name therefore simpler/shorter will be better: up to mappers to spice things up.

Now if you ask me, how do we approach existing missions? No idea, haven't thought of it.

And bound items such as candles and candle-holders? I don't know, Candle? One case at a time, I guess.

Edited August 5, 2023 by snatcher

[datiswous]

4 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Now if you ask me, how do we approach existing missions? No idea, haven't thought of it.

I think it's up to the mapper to include specific chosen names for specific movables.

[datiswous]

So (maybe) you need a gui that is always active that shows the entity name every time an entity is frobbed. This only works when the entity is properly named (so not atdm_moveable_ball_spiked_large_2 for example). But maybe you think of an addon to include a bunch of alternative names for the entities of a specific mission?

Edited August 5, 2023 by datiswous

[snatcher]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

I think it's up to the mapper to include specific chosen names for specific movables.

Core items should cover a good-enough number of moveables in all mission. There normally isn't that much junk and it normally is the same and it is found in the same places: kitchen, bathroom, bedroom... Would mappers complain if all of a sudden a "Stool" is described as a "Stool"?

Things change though when a mapper decides a "Brush" becomes "Penelope's Brush". A useless item still, but more power to tell a story through everyday objects.

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

So (maybe) you need a gui that is always active that shows the entity name every time an entity is frobbed.

It's all in there already: the "shouldered name" slot in the HUD. It works perfectly fine via script although it would be better to have it built-in. Regardless: no names, no game

[wesp5]

While the idea is great, I see a small problem. I guess right now mappers can already name items, so if something has a name players know it is important for the mission. If it has no name it isn't. This would be lost if everything had a name!

Edited August 6, 2023 by wesp5

[nbohr1more]

I like it.

Would probably need a menu option to toggle it if this were to be included in the core project.

[snatcher]

6 hours ago, wesp5 said:

While the idea is great, I see a small problem. I guess right now mappers can already name items, so if something has a name players know it is important for the mission. If it has no name it isn't. This would be lost if everything had a name!

Mappers can name items that go into the inventory or use elaborated tricks such as when you frob a book and get the title onscreen. We are talking useless junk you interact with but you are right, @wesp5.

For this initiative to succeed it must be consistent throughout all stages. At this early stage we cannot allow players to grab a chair that has a name but the next, slight different chair, hasn't got a name. Therefore there must be a short term vision and long term vision.

Objects must have at least two new spawnargs:

"obj_name_tdm" "Bottle of Wine" // Default
"obj_name_map" "Cabernet Sauvignon" // Custom (by mapper)

To simplify it let's call these args TDM and MAP.

MAP is for mappers to populate if they wish and it will always take preference over TDM. During the short term stage only objects named by a mapper (MAP) will be displayed onscreen when grabbing that object.

TDM contains the default core name, and at this stage it never is displayed. We will carry on populating TDM internally and with time we should reach a point where all core TDM are populated.

What will we do next? I have no idea. Are we close or far from 90% of objects? Should we enable TDM by default? (remember MAP takes preference over TDM).

Regardless of the eventual outcome or decision, core items will have a proper name and who knows if this brings other ideas or initiatives.

[Wellingtoncrab]

Kind of interesting way to add narrative to objects in the game. Maybe I am wrong but I think moveables inherit the “inv_name” spawnarg, which is the display name for inventory items in the inventory gui - though for most objects that don’t end up in the players inventory it’s probably blank.

It might be a good one to repurpose as it would also then display correctly for objects such as keys when they are dropped from inventory but being held by the player.

[snatcher]

As of today, if I recall well, moveables with a populated "inv_name" will go into your inventory. It's the condition, I think.

Repurposing "inv_name" is a technical challenge (large or small I don't know). Building a new layer on top of everything should yield faster, safer results.

Experienced developers surely can provide good advise.

Edited August 6, 2023 by snatcher
Proven wrong by Wellingtoncrab

[snatcher]

21 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

[...] display correctly for objects such as keys when they are dropped from inventory but being held by the player.

Good point. My current script takes care of objects with "inv_name" already (as a separate item).

[snatcher]

Here is my current WIP script.

It is ready for "obj_name_tdm" and "obj_name_map" spawnargs but mind you: it is stripped from other stuff and it still includes other stuff I am testing.

boolean holding_check = false;
entity entity_held = $null_entity;

if ($player1.heldEntity() != $null_entity)
{
	if (!holding_check)
	{
		string invMessage;
		entity_held = $player1.heldEntity();
		if (entity_held.getBoolKey("shoulderable"))
		{
			invMessage = "#str_02410"; // Assume "Body"
			if (entity_held.getHealth() > 0)
			{
				if (entity_held.getKey("shouldered_name") != "")
					invMessage = entity_held.getKey("shouldered_name");
			}
			else
			{
				if (entity_held.getKey("shouldered_name_dead") != "")
					invMessage = entity_held.getKey("shouldered_name_dead");
			}
		}
		else
		{
			invMessage = "Object"; // Assume "Object" (no translation)
			if (entity_held.isType("idAI"))
				invMessage = "#str_02410"; // Assume "Body"
			if (entity_held.getKey("obj_name_tdm") != "")
				invMessage = entity_held.getKey("obj_name_tdm");
			if (entity_held.getKey("obj_name_map") != "")
				invMessage = entity_held.getKey("obj_name_map");
			if (entity_held.getKey("inv_name") != "")
				invMessage = entity_held.getKey("inv_name");
		}

		$player1.setGuiString($player1.getInventoryOverlay(), "InventoryPickUpMessageText", "");
		$player1.setGuiString($player1.getInventoryOverlay(), "GrabbedItemName", sys.translate(invMessage));

		holding_check = true;
	}
}
else if (holding_check)
{
	if ($player1.getShouldered() == $null_entity)
		$player1.setGuiString($player1.getInventoryOverlay(), "GrabbedItemName", "");

	holding_check = false;
}

Edited August 6, 2023 by snatcher

[Wellingtoncrab]

37 minutes ago, snatcher said:

As of today, if I recall well, moveables with a populated "inv_name" will go into your inventory. It's the condition, I think.

To my recollection objects will not go into inventory unless they have both inv_name and inv_category assigned. Though I think it does result in a console error.

I am not sure why you need separate spawnargs for the core mod and mappers as this doesn’t seem to really solve any kind of problem - just like if we want to change the name of an inventory item we just assign the spawnarg a new value. 

By default my opinion is a field like this should always be blank and it should always be up to mappers to give objects names.

Descriptions like “bottle” and “nice chair” are not adding much interesting in the way of context, but they are certainly at risk of removing it from existing missions. Being able to call out “Mandrasola Syrup” and “Dave’s Favorite Chair” would be pretty cool though.

[snatcher]

2 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

To my recollection objects will not go into inventory unless they have both inv_name and inv_category assigned. Though I think it does result in a console error.

You are 100% correct. An object requires both in order to land into the inventory.

Regarding the rest, I agree with your points but I still don't disagree with other options. I keep wondering to myself, what would have happened if object names had been displayed from day one? Would it had been questioned or would we all be totally ok with it today?

[snatcher]

It took me five minutes to (quickly) "name" moveables in tdm_moveable_kitchen.def

What do you think?

[chakkman]

15 hours ago, snatcher said:

What do you think?

If it's available as an option in the TDM settings ingame, or as a cvar, I guess it doesn't do much harm. But, I don't really care if items are being displayed with a name or not. I think there's a much higher priority of having quality in other regards in missions than displaying the item's names on screen.

Just my opinion, you asked for opinions.

Edited August 7, 2023 by chakkman

[datiswous]

I think it could be a super cool feature. You can also have the player comment on items.

Edited August 8, 2023 by datiswous

[snatcher]

Why do I have to shoulder entities to get to know their status (KO/dead), or their name (Mr Bad)?

The reason we are talking all this is because I wanted to display the "shouldering name" of AI on frob. As soon as the goal was achieved I wondered about non-AI names and here we are.

5 hours ago, chakkman said:

[...] I don't really care if items are being displayed with a name or not [...]

Precisely. A chair is a chair and an apple is an apple. Most of us will see it as redundant and conclude it is pointless or useless. I am not yet ready to give up so let's go beyond the obvious: does having a little tag at the bottom go in detriment of the intended experience? This must be difficult to answer because, I guess, it needs to be experienced.

Another little concern in my list is that sometimes you cannot tell if you are holding an object or not. Having a name can help in these situations.

[snatcher]

6 hours ago, datiswous said:

[...] You can also gave the player comment on items.

Insightful!