Explosive Mine

[Springheel]

And what do you say if we dont give any MINE to our thief but force him (and the gamers) to collect MINES if he wants to.. And we can show the true face of Mines to gamers. If you wanna use it ...Well First you have to disable it and then you have to collect it... I think it would be giving extra sweat to everyone...

 

That's a nice idea...but once the mines are modeled and coded, it's really up to the FM author to decide whether to make any available to the Thief or not. However, we should definitely program a way for the Thief to be able to disable mines then, so that we could use the above scenario.

[New Horizon]

It's very important to remember that we are first and foremost creating a set of modding tools for Thief style fan missions. We want to give the fan community as many, if not all, of the classic Thief tools as possible. We shouldn't really be arguing about these details at this point. It's just part of the job we've set out to do. With that in mind, we are putting a lot of these tools in there because they were in the original LGS games, but that's our focus for the FM tools, not the campaign. We have to keep that distinction.

 

For the campaign, we can cut ties to whatever we wish and go crazy.

[Darkness_Falls]

Well put, New Horizon. Always a voice of reason.

 

One thing I was just thinking is, since we all disagree about whether or not mines would be realistic, wouldn't it be cool if when you tossed a mine it then faded to invisible, or at least nearly tranparent, over a couple seconds? (If it turned completely invisible, maybe just leave a very faintly glowing LED on it or something.)

 

At first I wasn't thinking this wouldn't be something I'd want to see in a Thief game... but then I remembered there was an Invisibility Potion in T2. And I liked using it on Garrett. Soooo, isn't it realistic to think the same sort of technology/magic could be applied to a mine? Sure, one application is on a biological level (Garrett) whereas the other is on a mechanical level (mine), but still. Technological/mechanical advances could put this in the realm of possibility within the Thief world, imo. And I'd like it. It seems more thief-like than having a big mine plopped in the middle of the floor.

 

Regarding the loud sound it made when you tossed them in T2, which I also didn't like (not secretive enough), I was thinking we should coat our mines with a sound-absorbing polymer or something Or perhaps they should have cushiony bottoms and edges?

[SneaksieDave]

Always a voice of reason.

Not always! Don't forget this!*

 

Just shut up and sit down, all of you fools.  What I say goes here.  None of your talents, whines, or complaints mean SHIT, got it?  And I say ALL LOCKS WILL BE IN THE CENTER OF DOORS!  PERIOD.  If you don't like it, LEAVE!  YOU SUCK ANYWAY!!

 

 

 

*May not have actually happened.

[TYROT]

dear SneaksieDave

 

MAN ...IT WASSSSSSSSSSSS AWESOME!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

you destroyed me man..

 

BEST

[New Horizon]

Not always! Don't forget this!*

 

Just shut up and sit down, all of you fools.  What I say goes here.  None of your talents, whines, or complaints mean SHIT, got it?  And I say ALL LOCKS WILL BE IN THE CENTER OF DOORS!  PERIOD.  If you don't like it, LEAVE!  YOU SUCK ANYWAY!!

 

 

 

*May not have actually happened.

In my own defense...I was heavily hooked on crack during that point of development. Man, I don't even remember that.

[Darkness_Falls]

Oh, I forgot all about that!! I take my comment back

[Domarius]

Yes sparhawk, you can deactivate your own mines in T2 open up T2, drop a mine, sneak close to it and lean forward with your lockpicks until it lights up. Then start lock-picking. Saved me many a wasted mine. Would be really good in Multiplayer.

...triggering them only when one steps upon it might be a bit hard. Depends on how the AI moves.

Can't it just be a collision detection between the mine and the AI?

 

TYROT and oDDity's posts make sense. A land mine hardly seems like the tool of a cat-burgler.

And yet, what New Horizon and others have been saying is also true - we want to make a game familiar to Thief fans.

 

I agree with TYROT; keep the mine, but make it harder.

 

Here's my suggestion

 

Yes, Guards can see mines, making it useless against guards, period. If they see it, they go into search mode, and will never go near enough to set it off. Even if it means standing on one side of it in a narrow hallway, cursing at you while you are safely on the other side.

 

But It stays useful for the things I found it useful for - non-humans, specifically robots, and undead. Let's assume that those creatures don't have our level of perception, and will never see a mine.

Those creatures are very strong and very dangerous (if they're not, we should make them moreso). So even though the mine may wake up everyone in the building, you might find yourself in such a dangerous position that you will want to use one against one of those creatures.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Domarius

[sparhawk]

Regarding the loud sound it made when you tossed them in T2, which I also didn't like (not secretive enough), I was thinking we should coat our mines with a sound-absorbing polymer or something Or perhaps they should have cushiony bottoms and edges?

If you throw it it makes noise. If you drop it carefully it shouldn't. That's the way with all the objects.

[TYROT]

dear Domarius

 

I think your idea of using MINE is brilliant. Any human type character can see them and act accordingly but not the non-human characters. It would be really awesome to wait that little Zombie to step on that mine and explode himself up...I think this is the way...to go..brilliant.!

 

And additionally it would really awesome to avoid from not only light but the MINE setup for our thief.. That s really nice idea too

 

best

Edited December 22, 2004 by TYROT

[oDDity]

Yes, that's good Domarius, I also like SH's idea of guards setting mines as traps for our thief. I've always wanted to be confronted by traps in this game.

[_Atti_]

yea..i like the maps of thief1 full of traps:) cant wait till we can start designing some stuff for tomb type levels:) muhaha:)

[SneaksieDave]

I love traps against the player, if properly done. If poorly done, they're just a quickload. But if well done, with advanced warning and a way to avoid/deactivate for those who are paying attention, they are a good thing. That trap laden room in Bonehoard comes to mind, mmmmmm.

 

The problem with the guards staying away from mines, etc., is that the player could abuse it, no? Like, just quarter off one whole section of the house by laying down a few mines? Perhaps it could delay them instead, maybe they have bombsquad training? (I'm only half joking there - there should be some way they can circumvent or disarm them?)

[Springheel]

I think guards should be able to see a mine if it's out in plain view, but one hidden behind something or in a shadow should still get them. If they see one in plain view, it will put them in alert mode. Could they set the bomb off from a distance with a missile weapon? All guards will be able to throw *something* even if it's just rocks.

[Darkness_Falls]

Could they set the bomb off from a distance with a missile weapon? All guards will be able to throw *something* even if it's just rocks.

I think they should. In T2, it seems like guards would proactively shoot and swing at Froggbeasts to kill them. I always considered Froggbeasts a form of "mine," since they exploded. So, why wouldn't a guard proactively destroy (or defuse) a mine if s/he saw one?

[Domarius]

The problem with the guards staying away from mines, etc., is that the player could abuse it, no?  Like, just quarter off one whole section of the house by laying down a few mines?  Perhaps it could delay them instead, maybe they have bombsquad training?    (I'm only half joking there - there should be some way they can circumvent or disarm them?)

I'm glad so many of you mostly agree with my idea. While I NEVER used mines on humans, they really helped even the odds against those dangerous type creatures.

 

But SneaksieDave thought of something I didn't - you could POSSIBLY trap AI guards in a hallway by putting a mine at each end.

However, that's expensive, and I've yet to see the Theif mission (original or fan) where I had more than 3 mines.

 

So it might not be a problem at all.

If it is a problem, then we should look into some way for Guards to disarm them. And take them for themselves. Heh. That'd make you think twice about placing them

Maybe if they've seen them, they're quite free to pick them up, and you never see them again.

 

(edit) The destroying idea is good, but requires they have projectiles. And then they'd have to think about who else is around so they didn't kill their friends. I think my idea above is simpler.

Edited December 23, 2004 by Domarius

[Springheel]

Well, our thief has to use his uber lockpicking skills to disarm a mine. Why should a lowly guard be able to do it?

 

I think any guard that spots a mine should no approach within a certain distance of it. After calling an alert ("We got an intruder!") he then proceeds to pelt it with missile weapons until it explodes. Since all AI will be programmed to stay a certain distance away, then he doesn't have to worry about blowing up his buddies.

[Domarius]

Good point.

 

I'm open to the projectile idea then. I forgot that we are giving ALL guards the "useless" projectiles for throwing at the player when he's out of reach.

 

(edit)While typing up the design doc, I thought of this;

 

The AI doesn't need to worry about the explosion killing team mates, since they will keep their distance. But they only keep their distance when they KNOW about the mine.

If they don't, and happen to walk around the corner as it goes off, well, s**t happens.

 

But in that case, should the shout "We have a mine here!!!" cause AI to RUN AWAY from the sound source, rather than GO TO the sound source to investigate it, like all other "alarming sounds" do? In that case, we'd be making the one exception for that sound only! It's extra work.

 

Can we think of a more elegant solution? Otherwise I can envisage scenarios like this happening a LOT:

 

"HEY! We have a mine here!!" *chuck* *chuck* *chuck*

 

"What's all that racket?" *investigate*

"Who's making that noise?" *investigate*

"I won't have people making noises where I can't see them!!" *investigate*

 

*chuck* *chuck* *chuck* *KABOOOOM!!!*

 

"Argh!!" *dies*

"Oh, I die, a pox on you all!" *dies*

"I say, what the-" *dies*

Edited December 23, 2004 by Domarius

[pakmannen]

Also, it doesn't really make sense for the AI to blow up the mine in some locations. Just imagine the museum.. (Would he really blow up that 1000 year old statue? His bosses aren't gonna like it!)

[Springheel]

Could we code it so he blows up the mine only if he can't safely pathfind around it?

 

I'm not sure about your example, Domarius. Are you saying the player could use mines as makeshift noise arrows? It's a pretty expensive way to use them.

 

 

Presumably, if the guard calls an alarm and other AI come running, they will *all* be able to see the mine, won't they? Although it might be funny if an elite guard spots the mine with his better acuity, he sounds the alarm, and a couple house guards come running right up and step on it.

[sparhawk]

Although it might be funny if an elite guard spots the mine with his better acuity, he sounds the alarm, and a couple house guards come running right up and step on it.

Why else would he call them?

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Here's the basic tech design for the gas mine, i'll post that up when the art is done, it'll look more steampunk with defined vents and metal edging.

 

 

I've removed the lights, partially because people were talking about people seeing the mines, and to expand on what others had said, these mines would be more in line to use agains humans, and explosive mines against non-humans. It uses the same activation switch/trigger as the explosive mine, and vents out the gas from it's various vents. Same as the explosive mine, it's not much bigger than a CD.

 

I'm guessing the gas is formed from to powders or liquids mixing and giving it off when it's stepped on/triggered.

Edited December 24, 2004 by god_is_my_goldfish

[Domarius]

Could we code it so he blows up the mine only if he can't safely pathfind around it?

 

I'm not sure about your example, Domarius.  Are you saying the player could use mines as makeshift noise arrows?  It's a pretty expensive way to use them.

 

 

Presumably, if the guard calls an alarm and other AI come running, they will *all* be able to see the mine, won't they?  Although it might be funny if an elite guard spots the mine with his better acuity, he sounds the alarm, and a couple house guards come running right up and step on it.

1. Yeah, that is worth considering.

 

2. No, maybe I'll explain better.

 

3. I suppose so. It's realistic that some people might see it and others not, and end up dying as a result. However;

 

My concern was that it doesn't seem right for a guard to call everyone to come and look at the mine he's about to blow up, when they could die as a result. He should be saying "Everyone stand clear!!" or something.

 

However, we could ignore that concern and let the default behaviour happen, as if they don't understand what the guard is saying and are just coming to see what the commotion is all about, which is what happens in the Thief games anyway. People just run to noise, no matter what is being said.

It would be simpler that way.

Edited January 3, 2005 by Domarius