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It does not - the single click action is performed on key release. If key release occurs before the delay time is over it is instantly performed. There is no perceivable delay when doing a normal frob action, though I guess this would be slightly “slower” than doing it on key down. You can set the frob delay variable to 5000ms and still get an immediate feeling response when just “clicking” the mouse button. I assume this is how long press also works with the darkmod controller config, as there is much a longer delay there to perform an long press action and there is no perceivable delay when simply pressing a button. Just like click to drop body, door switch handling, and other things you have brought up this is just not a description of how that patch works. Not sure if something went haywire with applying the patch?

I considered stating that this is false, but it's only potentially misleading. And, this description of long-press frob has indeed caused confusion. If I'm understanding wesp5 correctly, he now thinks quick-press frob always has a 200ms delay, which is not true. Ok, yeah, this is false. Actually, here, you were talking about the double-click feature and not long-press frob, I guess? Quick-press frob (single-click action) happens on frob key up. So, yes, there is a "delay", but that delay is not 200ms. Frob key down is instant. Frob key up has a delay, because it's key down and then key up. The quicker the player releases frob (key up), the sooner the quick-press frob action happens. If one considers pressing frob quickly, then there is practically no delay in quick-press frob. Long-press frob acts like an override. When the player holds frob down long enough, the special action (extinguish candle / drag body) happens instead of the regular frob action (pick up), and to be clear, the regular frob action never happens if the special action happened.

I think people will have way more misclicks with single-click vs long-click prototype: you don't even need a second press to do the wrong action. And increasing the duration threshold to reduce this chance will also increase delay of single-click actions, which is hard to notice on 200 ms.

If this is the case, I certainly didn't notice a 200 ms delay ;). Can you please do a test version of your setup with delayed long-frob instead of double-frob? This would be the perfect solution for me and snatcher, as it is consistent also to the current multi-frob. And maybe add the consumable long-frob eating for everything to fit together?

Personally, for this kind of game, double-clicking and double-tapping are the kind of things that instantly get a sour taste in my mouth as soon as I hear it, because I already know from experience that it not reliable enough and it's more prone to human error. You said it yourself: It may also happen accidentally if your fingers twitch, or if your mouse misregisters an extra click, or when you think you didn't hit the target and immediately click again, but it so happens that you did hit the target the first time; or when you're hasting to perform the same task multiples times in quick succession (not very relevant here, but I couldn't count how many times I died in minecraft tapping keys to adjust my position and accidentally double-tapping forward and sprinting off a cliff). Also, given that we're talking about the right mouse button, I'm feeling even less inclined. I can double-right-click, but it doesn't feel very comfortable. It's really not something I'm used to, so it requires a degree of effort (and I suppose it will get my hand tired, as @Wellingtoncrabmentioned). Yup. I like ghosting. To be fair, I play with my own lax rules, but I still feel bothered if I have to tamper with the natural order of things, if I think it's unnecessary or that I shouldn't be forced to. It might seem petty, but it's part of what makes the challenge interesting. You never know, the candle owner might have noticed before bed that the candle was about an inch away from a spec of dust, and in the morning he might realize that that distance has changed. So, from a ghosting perspective, when you tamper with things without needing to, you've introduced a point of failure. If the game requires it, that's another story -- it turns into "I can't work around it, so I have to bend the rules because of it". But as far as I'm concerned it still bothers me and kind of ruins the challenge. For example, TDM has been leaving a really sour taste in my mouth when it comes to dropping keys, because lots of missions don't allow it (because unfortunately they're not droppable by default in DR, and for no good reason, afaik). After Snatcher's post about the delay interfering with manipulating bodies, I was growing tempted to agree with reversing it, but then I realized both ways have issues of the same kind. If you can click to shoulder, then you can't click to drag body -- you always have to hold button, which is not great if you're dragging a body a long distance. If you can click to drag a body, then you can't hold to drag a body. You always have to click to drag and then click to release, which is also not great when you're dragging limbs for a pose or something. (I suppose this might be even more annoying than the other.) Maybe I should posting this in that thread.

Your implementation just falls into the following category: "you delay all single-click actions until you are sure it cannot turn into double-click/long-click".

That's the same for all versions, for both double-click or long-click. You either start single-click action immediately when first click starts (proper solution), or you delay all single-click actions until you are sure it cannot turn into double-click/long-click (ugly), or you just map the different action to a different key (proper solution). Pick your poison.

I was thinking about the concern @snatchermentioned about this making the ability to manipulate bodies around prohibitively tedious. I think there a bit of truth to that. I don't think it's that bad: I just manipulated a body around with not much hassle. But I can see how the delay might end up feeling like a stone in your shoe, for someone who does this often. But as I was testing this, trying to manipulate a guard around, I noticed that most often when I want to manipulate, I have a tendency to want to not just click and hold, but to also drag the mouse (or start walking). And that's where the delay interferes a bit. So I was thinking, maybe the implementation could also detect mouse dragging after the initial click, and immediately enter manipulation mode when it detects it? (Maybe it would be wise to still have a slight threshold for this? Not all mice and hands are exactly steady when clicking, so I suppose there might be a slight unintentional movement. I suppose this would have to be better thought about and tested.) And maybe the same could be said about detecting walking right after the initial click.

There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?

Here is an alternative way to simplify extinguishing candles and shouldering bodies. Player can double-press / double-click frob button to do a mixed frob + use action. The test build is available in tdm_installer as "test-frob-stgatilov". Attached the source code patch too: FrobUse_By_DoubleClick.patch The original TDM controls are left unchanged. The difference starts only when double-click is registered (which unfortunately can happen accidentally). Also, the double-click action always continues the single-click action. So when you grab a body/candle, the single-click action happens immediately: there is no need to delay it. The maximum time between double-clicks is controlled by cvar in_doubleClickDelay, default is 200 ms. In principle, you can set it to zero to return to the old behavior: then double-clicks won't be registered. Here is how it works internally. There is an utility class which tracks held buttons (which are called "impulses" --- Doom 3 has too few "buttons"). I have extended it to also register double-click. So whenever player clicks frob and this is registered as double-click, then: If there is nothing grabbed, then do ordinary "frob" to grab item (this allows to double-click on already grabbed item). If there is nothing grabbed now, then fall back to normal single-click frob (this happens for ungrabable stuff like doors). If there is something grabbed, then "use" it (that's the main part: it shoulders/extinguished/eats the thing). Unless we have a body shouldered, release currently grabbed item (we want to ungrab extinguished candle). And there is also a special case: If there is something equipped at the moment of double-click, the just "use" it instead of anything else (this allows to unshoulder body by double-click).

Sorry for the delay. The new version is up in the mission database now.

It is not a long-click, it is click-and-hold, where holding time matters (and is much longer than long click). So with your change it would be short click, long click, and click-and-hold. Click-and-hold at least continues short click, while long click does not. When I pick up a candle, the candle is lift off with delay --- that's because long click does not continue the action of short click, so the code has to wait until mouse is released and can't apply the short-click action immediately. That's exactly the issue that you fixed with crouching, and now you introduce it in another place.

The "external argument about exact duration" is not removed with double click. There is a setting in OS preferences for setting double-click speed, is there not? The challenge of setting the exact duration is the same for both long-press and double-click frob. Therefore, the confusion is not removed with double click. I tuned the long-press frob to be somewhere between "unintentional long-press frob" and "it being too sluggish." Early player feedback guided the current default value of 200ms -- it was originally 300ms. During more play testing, if players are having trouble, the default can be increased and tested. We need to follow the data from actual play testing. The player can adjust the tdm_frobhold_delay cvar to their liking as well. It's more likely that a player will hold frob while moving an item, because for most items, nothing different or bad happens. It's less likely that a player will unintentionally double-click frob an item during pick up, because they know that would cause them to drop it. Therefore, players are more likely to discover long-press frob to extinguish than double-click frob to extinguish, which is a good thing. We want the player to discover it (if they didn't read the manual or play the tutorial mission). Also, long-press frob is used in other games, such as Fallout 4. Getting double-click frob to extinguish to work well along with drop item would be troublesome, because there would always be a double-click delay before a single-click drop initiates. Long-press frob does not have a drop issue, because the player can long-press frob until they see the candle extinguish or quick-press frob to instantly drop it. To be clear, long-press frob also "does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for" a longer frob press. This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob. For longtime players who are not satisfied with this new control scheme, "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" restores TDM 2.11 behavior. After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.

It’s incredibly common in controller mapping - to the point even the game’s current controller implementation supports it. Not sure if switching this to a double click is additive or subtractive. What is getting lost is the primary interaction with a body imo is actually to shoulder it - not drag it. Obfuscating this behind a second input is clunky and confusing to new players. What is “intuitive” is a matter of perspective, but the current patched method of the initial click shouldering a body makes a lot more sense to me and actually addresses some of the complaints from new players as laid out in the initial post. There is a method via the delay cvar for experienced players who prefer the old system to restore it, so I am uncertain what the down side is really?

OK I think I've got to the bottom of this. I've created this forum thread (with bug report): https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22221-bug-drowning-ai-in-shallow-water/ I can apply a workaround, although it won't be perfect and the bug itself needs fixing in the engine. There are a few other things that need fixing so will put an update together soonish.

If any mappers have encountered weirdness with kill objectives not working with drowning AI, I think I've found out why. I don't think it would be a particularly difficult one to fix either. I've raised this bug report: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6323 Some context here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21837-fan-mission-the-lieutenant-2-high-expectations-by-frost_salamander-20230424/&do=findComment&comment=487316 I think this is a bug, but just raising here in case some people think otherwise.

I dom't use it, i found it here with the filter set to OpenSource. the TOS and PP isn't excluding for an OpenSource app, if they use ads mean that they also need to pay an server for this online service. OpenSource is not synonymous with free either, perhaps after the beta phase it is no longer free, so perhaps you can take advantage of the fact that it is still free to create a series of textures that can be used or search another one in Futuretools. AI generated textures and assets, by definition, don't have any copyright, so you can use them as you want. https://www.futuretools.io/?pricing-model=free|open-source&tags-n5zn=gaming

@AluminumHaste Could you please make a new build? (Should be the last one.) I've updated the patch to fix a bug when auto-search bodies is enabled and delay is 0, and I removed the "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar. After talking with a player on Discord, I changed the default delay to 200ms. Seems like that will also work well with your preference of 250ms. Pros of 200ms: Dragging a body doesn't feel sluggish. Putting out a candle is pretty fast. Cons of 200ms: New players might make a mistake (at first or without some practice). But will probably be ok. I think using 200ms, which I know is good, is better than going with my original assumption. If players have trouble during dev or beta, it can be changed back to 300ms. Better that I go with data than assumptions.

I would like feedback on the default "tdm_frobhold_delay" of 300ms. Is that: too long? too short? just right? I personally like 200ms. I made the default 300ms, because I thought some players might click a bit slower than me, which might cause them to do the long-press frob action unintentionally. Which delay do you all prefer? @AluminumHaste What are your thoughts?

I admit that I was skeptical myself at first, but once I tried it in game, I changed my mind. So, I recommend applying the patch to a local build and give it a go in game. It's definitely better experienced than thought about. Regarding the candle puzzle in "Seeking Lady Leicester" (SLL), I agree that this proposed change will make that a bit more difficult, but I disagree on the reason why. The released version of SLL has a flint in the inventory to ignite them, so accidentally extinguishing candles shouldn't be much of a problem. Instead, I think the reason for player frustration would be that the unlit candles highlight, showing they can be frobbed, but when the player does frob, nothing would happen. They might not realize the candles can be picked up with a long-press frob. @Wellingtoncrab and I had a discussion about that exact puzzle during the design of this feature. So, what convinced me that it wasn't really a problem? I tried it in game. Players will learn how unlit candles look and behave when frobbed. Like @ChronA said above: "When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out." I decided it was better to optimize for what players expect most often and do most often rather than optimize for rare cases. Players already rage in frustration that they have trouble extinguishing candles or don't realize that they can. Another quote from a player on Discord: "I'd even say the "some players didn't know you could extinguish candles by using them" thing is "almost any new player and a lot of old ones too", since I once had an extended conversation about exactly how immersion breaking and weird it was to have to extinguish candles by dropping them, and literally not a single person brought up the fact that [extinguish candles by using them] was possible." During beta testing, the struggle that some beta testers had with the candle puzzle was not knowing about object manipulation. They didn't know about the "Parry/Manipulate" keybinding, or they forgot about object manipulation because they did the training mission roughly 5 years ago and had not needed to do it in a mission afterwards. So, "long-press frob to pick up" is in the same class of player interaction as object manipulation. In other words, the same problem already exists in TDM v2.11. I couldn't find the original screenshot from one of the SLL beta testers, but here's one similar, showing that the player didn't know about object manipulation: If this is truly in a released mission, I'd like to know about it. We can problem solve for that case if it does in fact exist. I don't think we should concern ourselves with something hypothetical, though. And, I disagree that we should make or keep controls cumbersome for the player in order to add challenge. I agree with @ChronA here. I don't think players are playing TDM for that type of challenge. The patch includes the following cvar: "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"300" The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or pick up. Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. When "tdm_frobhold_delay" is set to 0, candles and bodies have the same behavior as TDM v2.11. As of a few moments ago, bodies didn't quite have the same behavior. But based on your feedback, I updated the patch (linked above) to make bodies behave that way. Thank you for your feedback.

I don't really see a reason this would be an issue in SLL. It be nice to see the feature in a dev build so more players (like me) can test it. Sort of like how we did testing with the frob highlight. I also don't see a reason why there would be a compatibility issue either. Leveraging this sort of short press/long press for different commands on the same input already exists for gamepads in the TDM controller config. As daft says in his post if the delay CVAR is set to 0, then there is no delay for the additional command and the original behavior for all the interactions is restored. But again it’d be nice to try it.

Hello TDM-ers. I am encountering an issue where textures seem to partially disappear. I tried searching the forums, but, I don't know what to search for. The missing textures are a worldspawn brush acting as a roof with {for now} flat iron texture. There are other worldspawn brushes right below to create an attic ceiling with roof framework board texture. These gaps appeared a few edits ago. I can't "undo" to get back before whatever edit did this. The gaps are only visible during play and are not visible during editing. Closing and reopening DR and TDM do not fix anything. Some of the brushes overlap in areas behind the play area but I have never seen an issue doing that. The attached image has the effect I am now seeing. Ideas on where to start debugging this? Very much appreciated. Clint

Awesome! Post is up! https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22200-beta-testing-the-house-of-delisle/#comment-487365 Thanks!

Complaint From Players The player must pick up candles before extinguishing them, and then the player must remember to drop the candle. The player must drag a body before shouldering it (picking it up), and the player must remember to frob again to stop dragging the body. The player finds this annoying or easy to make mistakes. For players who ghost, some of them have the goal of returning objects back to their original positions. With the current "pick up, use item, and drop" system, the item might not return easily or at all to its original position. For example, a candlestick might bounce off its holder. (See player quotes at the bottom.) Bug Tracker https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316 Problems to Solve How can the "pick up" step be eliminated so that the player can directly use or interact with the item where it is in the game world? How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking be eliminated when the player wants to directly use an item? How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up? How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them? Solution Design Goals Make TDM easier for new players while also improving it for longtime players. Reduce tedious steps for common frob interactions. Make it intuitive so that menu settings are unnecessary. Do not introduce bugs or break the game. Terms frob -- the frob button action happens instantly. hold frob -- the frob button is held for 200ms before the action happens. (This can be changed via cvar: 200ms by default.) Proposed Solution Note: Some issues have been struckthrough to show changes since the patch has been updated. Change how frobbing works for bodies, candles, and lanterns. For bodies: Frob to shoulder (pick up) a body. Second frob to drop shouldered body, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. Hold frob (key down) to start drag, continue to hold frob (key down) to drag body, and then release frob (key up) to stop dragging body. Also, a body can be dragged immediately by holding frob and moving the mouse. For candles/lanterns: Frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns. Hold frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Hold frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns. For food: Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Hold frob to eat food. For other items: No change. New cvar "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"200" The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or extinguish. Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Solution Benefits Bodies: New players will have less to learn to get started moving knocked out guards. With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players have played several missions before realizing that they could shoulder a body instead of dragging it long distances. Frob to shoulder body matches Thief, so longtime Thief players will find it familiar. Second frob drops a shouldered body. Players still have the ability to both shoulder and drag bodies. Compatible with the new auto-search bodies feature. Dragging feels more natural -- just grab, hold, and drop with a single button press. There is no longer the need to press the button twice. Also, it's no longer possible to walk away from a body while unintentionally dragging it. Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Candles: New players will have less to learn to get started extinguishing candles. With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players didn't know they could extinguish candles by picking them up and using them. Instead, they resorted to throwing them to extinguish them or hiding them. Hold frob to extinguish a candle feels like "pinching" it out. Once a candle is picked up, players still have the ability to manipulate and use them the same way they are used to in TDM v2.11 and earlier. For players who ghost and have the goal of putting objects back to their original positions, they'll have an easier time and not have to deal with candles popping off their holders when trying to place them back carefully. Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Solution Issues Bodies: Frob does not drop a shouldered body, so that might be unexpected for new players. This is also different than Thief where a second frob will drop a body. "Use Inv. Item" or "Drop Inv. Item" drops the body. This is the same as TDM v2.11 and earlier. This is the price to pay for being able to frob (open/close) doors while shouldering a body. Patch was updated to drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. Candles: Picking up a candle or lantern requires a slight delay, because the player must hold the frob button. The player might unintentionally extinguish a candle while moving it if they hold down frob. The player will need to learn that holding frob will extinguish the candle. The player can change the delay period via the "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar. Also, when the cvar is set to a delay of 0, the behavior matches TDM v2.11 and earlier, meaning the player would have to first "Frob/Interact" to pick up the candle and then press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish it. Some players might unintentionally extinguish a candle when they are trying to move it or pick it up. They need to make sure to hold frob to initiate moving the candle. When a candle is unlit, it will highlight but do nothing on frob. That might confuse players. However, the player will likely learn after extinguishing several candles that an unlit candle still highlights. It makes sense that an already-extinguished candle cannot be extinguished on frob. The official "Training Mission" might need to have its instructions updated to correctly guide the player through candle manipulation training. Updating the training mission to include the hold frob to extinguish would probably be helpful. Similar Solutions In Fallout 4, frob uses an item and long-press frob picks it up. Goldwell's mission, "Accountant 2: New In Town", has candles that extinguish on frob without the need of picking them up first. Snatcher's TDM Modpack includes a "Blow / Ignite" item that allows the player to blow out candles Wesp5's Unofficial Patch provides a way to directly extinguish movable candles by frobbing. Demonstration Videos Note: The last two videos don't quite demonstrate the latest patch anymore. But the gist is the same. This feature proposal is best experienced in game, but some demonstration videos are better than nothing. The following videos show either a clear improvement or that the player is not slowed down with the change in controls. For example, "long-press" sounds long, but it really isn't. Video: Body Shouldering and Dragging The purpose of this video is to show that frob to shoulder a body is fast and long-press frob to drag a body is fast enough and accurate. Video: Long-Press Frob to Pick Up Candle The purpose of this video is to show how the long-press frob to pick up a candle isn't really much slower than regular frob. Video: Frob to Extinguish The purpose of this video -- if a bit contrived -- is to show the efficiency and precision of this proposed feature. The task in the video was for the player to as quickly and accurately as possible extinguish candles and put them back in their original positions. On the left, TDM v2.11 is shown. The player has to highlight each candle, press "Frob/Interact" to pick up, press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish, make sure the candle is back in place, and finally press "Frob/Interact" to drop the candle. The result shows mistakes and candles getting misplaced. On the right, the proposed feature is shown. The player frobs to extinguish the candles. The result shows no mistakes and candles are kept in their original positions. Special Thanks @Wellingtoncrab was instrumental in improving this feature during its early stages. We had many discussions covering varying scenarios, pros, and cons, and how it would affect the gameplay and player experience. Originally, I had a completely different solution that added a special "use modifier" keybinding. He suggested the frob to use and long-press frob to pick up mechanics. I coded it up, gave it a try, and found it to be too good. Without his feedback and patience, this feature wouldn't be as good as it is. Thank you, @Wellingtoncrab! And, of note, @Wellingtoncrab hasn't been able to try it in game yet, because I'm using Linux and can't compile a Windows build for him. So, if this feature isn't good, that's my fault. Code Patch I'll post the code patch in another post below this one so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback! Player Complaints TTLG (2023-01-10) Player 1: TDM Forums (2021-03-13) Player 2: Player 3: TDM Forums (2023-06-17) Player 4: TDM Discord (2021-05-18) Player 5: TDM Discord (2023-02-14) Player 6: Player 7: Player 8:

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