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Whoopsie @MirceaKitsune First thoughts: The moment a sub makes it in, it stays. We cannot have subs popping in and out of existence in a split sec. If we miss some in the queue, so be it. Non-story subs must have a way shorter distance over story subs. Story must prevail. If there ever is a need for a slot, a non-story sub gives place to story (this is the only exception to point one).

That bug report could be interpreted in two ways: One, the ingame-downloader-sorting needs changing, Two, all other lists needs changed sorting. The current sorting does not even resolve the issue as the sorting is still different from the missions web page.

That's a valid point well worth considering. The goal must be that a "TDM-libre" version is a net positive for the TDM project. The included libre mission must live up to sufficient standards. A bold statement would be that its very existance would be a net positive: I have played very many games in the Debian repo, and TDM compares favorably to them. If a new user becomes the least curious about the game after playing the libre version, they will soon find images and videos of the non-free content online and many will want to move on to take part of that content as well. If some current contributors of TDM would agree to release select screenshots from their missions under libre licenses, then maybe 10-20 screenshots can be included in "TDM-libre" as further teasers. I'm thinking "TDM-libre" is more than just facilitating distribution of "TDM-libre". It is just as much about enabling exposure for "TDM-nonlibre". A favorable outcome would be to recruit new participants to the project, expanding both the libre and non-libre parts of TDM. One appealing aspect of the Debian repository is that it is a curated collection of software (currently some 60 000 packages) that is hosted by the Debian project. I perceive an inclusion there (right or wrong) as a stamp of approval. An AppImage is something TDM would host ourselves and any prospective user would have to find us by themselves first, right? In that case the current installer works just fine. But I know little about this. Maybe you can elaborate?

Looking at that Winter landscape picture I would love to see a mission where you click on the painting and get transported to that place. This would actually be a cool mission hub.. Another cool idea is to make paintings out of TDM screenshots, which then are some sort of easter eggs. Maybe add some filters to make it look like a painting. I quite liked spotting paintings of screenshots of some of graiman's missions.

I'll put it at the top of my queue of missions to play, even if just to see the size of it. Is it explicitly said to be Libre with all its components? Mission story, models, textures, readables, and sound? If it is not, then I don't see that it would work to just change the assets it uses. If there is no mission that is explicitly said to be libre today, I see two options: * Ask if any author(s) would be willing to re-license one of their missions including its assets. * Try enlisting people interested in helping creating a libre mission from scratch. (Assuming it is even possible to play a mission which uses absolutely none of the 2.3 GB media/gamedata.) (Is it?)

Yeah, I'm not sure that would go over all too well. I, personally, am kinda particular about the paintings I choose and where they should go. This would also likely break the atmosphere for missions where the main/side objective is to steal a particular painting, or if a mapper has placed a frobable plaque near the painting that shows the player what the title of that particular painting is.

I was not aware, so thanks for raising this! Some software and games, e.g. SuperTuxKart, stores user data (addon tracks, screenshots, et.c.) into a sub-directory of the user's home directory ("~/.local/Share/supertuxkart"). Could TDM be modified to use a similar writable directory under the user's home where writing is necessary (missions, settings, savegames, et.c.), a directory that the system-wide installation will then use instead?

Thanks! It would be nice to have a mod that takes a bunch of paintings and randomly applies some of these to missions at mission start. Although maybe this is a bad idea, because it might change the atmosphere in rooms.

Does that work with reloadXData as well? I didn't test with core files. I tested with fm's subtitles. I tested with a subtitle I made (and is now included in fm) for WS5. At the start of the mission you walk for a bit and you get a monologue of some drunk guy containing multiple (sound+)srt files. Later I tested inline on Braeden Church. Btw. do you think these sound files might be used by other missions? Otherwise I would move them to the fm folder including the subtitles. //Note: These sounds are mostly specific to Saint Lucia mission. //But for some reason, they are located in core, so better define their subtitles here. subtitles tdm_stlucia { verbosity story inline "sound/voices/builders/builder1/conversations/builder1_conv_4.ogg" "It is not for me to question Brother Renald, but it does seem that there is naught but rats and beggars to guard against." inline "sound/voices/builders/builder1/conversations/builder1_conv_3.ogg" "As you say. Though the Lord Builder is known to work in ways most mysterious." inline "sound/voices/builders/builder2/conversations/builder2_conv_3.ogg" "Indeed. It is not our place to question. Our obedience doth honor Him." inline "sound/voices/builders/builder1/conversations/builder1_conv_1.ogg" "How much longer must we guard this accursed place?" inline "sound/voices/builders/builder2/conversations/builder2_conv_1.ogg" "The archbishop doth come two days hence." inline "sound/voices/builders/builder1/conversations/builder1_conv_2.ogg" "I should be ashamed to have His Eminence in such a place as this." inline "sound/voices/builders/builder2/conversations/builder2_conv_2.ogg" "It is hard to imagine a true miracle doth take place here." } Edit: I think it's simply possible to do a search in all fm's to see if these files are used outside of Saint Lucia.

Actually my name and @JackFarmershould be also under aditional mapping. Normally one would post in the topic of the fm and then hope that someone (the author) comes along to fix it. But this is one of the main 2 missions in tdm.

I did play Thief and FMs, but I don't play it any more, except for major things like Black Parade. The clunky movement and antiquated Dromed editor is what discouraged me from interacting with it over the years. I regularly play and sometimes make content for TDM, because it has much better movement model than Thief. I know that most missions don't use it well, but if you construct your geometry (gaps, ledges, distances) using power of two measurements, movement and mantling feels fast and snappy. There's no need for regression in that regard, in my opinion, there's a need for assets and missions made with the movement model in mind, to showcase its strengths properly. Even if TDM originally intended to "simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief, many things will be familiar to veteran Thief players" the actual mod history was a bit different. The team came up with a mission platform that has its own identity when it comes to mechanics. The way assets were made might have been a huge mistake, but that didn't prevent the platform from growing. Since you like anecdotal evidence, noone other Skacky once said that TDM movement model was super clunky, after playing The Painter's Wife. It was really hard to convince him that if a mapper places geometry this poorly, and isn't aware what spatial measurements play to the strengths of a movement model, no movement model will save his mission. And there is no fixing of this problem on the engine side, although it's not the first time when TDM team tries to address the asset problem with engine changes, which I suspect will ultimately lead to even more problems down the line. In game development, things like core mechanics and player tools are locked-down first, in one of the pre-production phases, because all the levels will be constructed around them. Making changes in core mechanics in a project this mature is very risky, I assume you don't plan on going through all playable spaces in all released TDM FMs to check for errors. Instead of making incremental changes in fundamental mechanics, I'd encourage you to create a fork, or some kind of major version bump candidate, like 3.0, where all things could be revamped: movement, player tools, UI, new frob mechanics, perhaps with UI contextual icons, new training map to incorporate all that, etc. Once all new elements fall into place and create something new, with a map or maps to back it up as relevant changes, it will be easier to convince existing player/author base that it was worth it. I assume the existing fanbase is already fragmented, as a result of all those heated discussions around the topic. But with multiple versions available for download, the transition to hypothetical "TDM 3.0" should be easier. It could be similar to UE2 and UE3, and you could also use this as an occasion to draw the line for backwards compatibility. I know there are old systems and variables kept in place just in order not to break existing missions. This way you could e.g. redo the LOD system, implement lights using math functions instead of textures, etc.

Is there non-libre media/gamedata that every mission will absolutely require? Even a mission created completely from scratch and only using its own stand-alone models, textures, music, and sound? E.g. is the Lantern image on the HUD libre? Yes, I understand that it may not be doable to replace (or re-license) all current gratis but non-libre media/gamedata used by current missions, but that may not be necessary. Hence my question (2) about a "TDM-libre" version consisting of only the game engine, all non-libre media/gamedata removed, but include a basic mission using (stand-alone) media/gamedata that is libre. This will honor the will of contributors not wanting their work in commercial projects, and still make a limited version of TDM qualify as libre software for the benefits I describe. Does anyone know why? A browser like Chromium or Firefox qualifies as libre but can be used to view and download non-libre content. This is what I'm going for in question (1). If there are libre TDM missions available, then the TDM installer would be similar to Steam in that regard.

TDM has tons of textures from "free" texture resources that do not allow redistribution and cannot be incorporated into a commercial project. Someone would need to create a huge replacement pack of textures that do not break the look of existing missions and do not infringe on the copyrighted textures. Also, many artists who contributed to this project do not want 3rd party entities to use their work in commercial projects. They intended the models, textures, sounds, animations to be exclusively used for Darkmod content. You would either have to replace ALL assets or contact every contributor and ask them to re-license their assets. Many contributors are no longer active with the project and haven't visited the forums in years so it would be no easy feat. I cannot speak to Debian policy but I think that they treat installers that add non-free content the same as non-free content itself. One could argue that Steam is such an installer but I guess Debian would counter that there are a few fully Libre games on Steam. I think Debian, Ubuntu, or Linux Mint need to consider a repo that allows for games (etc) that include non-libre content but intentionally offer this content for free to the community with no stipulations other than "don't try to sell it as a product".

This post differentiates between "gratis" ("at no monetary cost") and "libre" ("with little or no restriction") per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre * A libre version of TDM could: ** Qualify TDM for an article on the LibreGameWiki *** TDM is currently listed as rejected https://libregamewiki.org/Libregamewiki:Rejected_games_list because "Media is non-commercial (under CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0). The engine is free though (modified Doom 3) (2013-10-19)" ** Qualify for software repositories like Debian *** TDM is currently listed as unsuitable https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Unsuitable#The_Dark_Mod because 1) "The gamedata is very large (2.3 GB)", and 2) "The license of the gamedata (otherwise it must go into non-free with the engine into contrib)" and links to https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src/trunk/LICENSE.txt Questions: 1) tdm_installer.linux64 is 4.2 MB (unzipped), which is far from the 2.3 GB which is said to be too large. Yes, the user can use it to download data that is non-libre, but so can any web browser too. If the installer itself is completely libre, does anyone know the reason why it cannot be accepted into the Debian repository? 2) If adding the installer to the repository is not a viable solution, would it be possible to package the engine with a small and beginner friendly mission built only from libre media/gamedata into a "TDM-libre" release, and add user friendly functionality to download the 2.3 GB media/gamedata using "TDM-libre" (similar to mission downloading)? 3) Would such a "TDM-libre" release be acceptable for the Debian repository? 4) Would such a "TDM-libre" release be acceptable for LibreGameWiki? 5) Would the work be worth it? * Pros: Exposure in channels covering libre software (e.g. the LibreGameWiki). Distribution in channels allowing only libre software (e.g. the Debian repository). * Cons: The work required for the modifictions and release of "TDM-libre". Possible maintenance of "TDM-libre". I'm thinking that the wider reach may attract more volunteers to work on TDM, which may eventually make up for this work and hopefully be net positive. 6) Are there any TDM missions that are libre already today? If not, would anyone be willing to work on one to fulfill this? I'll contribute in any way I can. 7) I found the following related topics on the forum: * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/16226-graphical-installers-for-tdm/ (installing only the updater) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/16640-problems-i-had-with-tdm-installation-on-linux-w-solutions/ (problems with installation on Linux) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/17743-building-tdm-on-debian-8-steamos-tdm-203/ (Building TDM on Debian 8 / SteamOS) * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/18592-debian-packaging/ (Dark Radiant) ... but if there are other related previous discussions, I'd appreciate any links to them. Any thoughts or comments?

The gamepad implementation allows for a great degree of flexibility to personalize settings, aside from a few minor issues that I mentioned here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22337-gamepad-bindings/ I would say that playing TDM with a gamepad works very well, especially considering that it was implemented as experimental and hasn't been changed since then. If I could, I'd go back to 2021-you and congratulate you on buying that gamepad. I notice that your DarkmodPadbinds.cfg looks very different from mine...

It seems like more and more "thief" and "thief players" is becoming a short hand to dismiss community members earnest desire to improve the game - which happens to be a barely legally distinct "thief style" game which was made by thief fans for thief fans and is "designed to simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief". Who is the predominant player base of the game supposed to be beyond fans of the thief games? Is there some better avenue to find feedback for the game beyond this forum? FOSS and linux forums? I have seen maybe half a dozen posts from that segment. I am a thief fan, I play thief fms, my association with those games is what drives me to play and make things for this game. Are we supposed to pretend the original games are not a huge reason why most of us are here at all? TL;DR version:

In a few lists, TDM missions are presented sorted (or sortable) alphabetically: * In the mission downloader GUI * On the web page: https://www.thedarkmod.com/missions/ * On the wiki: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Missions_for_The_Dark_Mod The Chicago Manual of Style (CMOS) recommends placing initial articles (The, A, An) at the end of the full title: "A Tale of Two Cities" would appear as "Tale of Two Cities, A". Titles do not include subtitles unless they are essential for identification. If a subtitle is included, the initial article should be placed at the end of the full title, not before the subtitle. (https://style.mla.org/articles-and-alphabetization/) I mentioned this in "0006339: Polishing menus: mission downloader" (https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6339), but I suggest following CMOS in all cases where titles are an entry in a list.

You can't imagine how it feels to me I am testing the old missions that I played many times (like Saint Lucia and New Job), and I learn so much new! I believe those people never said this stuff before Maybe it was some hidden bug which prevented them from saying all those interesting things before, and now all of a sudden it is unlocked?! I underestimated how hard it is for a non-native speaker to understand stylized English speech.

So the old system is still present in 2.12? Then I truly fail to see the issue some others perceive Can't agree with you there. The implementation would be very counter-intuitive as it would clash with picking up swords/crates/etc with a single short click. If short frob becomes the new special action and we assume some new players won't know about long frob, then they also won't know they can move objects around. I can think of several missions where moving crates or magic orbs or lamps is vital to progression. Hell, picking up loot is done with short frob while long frob automatically picks up everything without the need to keep clicking. Long frob already is special action, changing it would create an inconsistent mess. If the argument is that shouldering should be long frob after picking the body with short frob, then perhaps you want to look at shouldering from a new perspective; shouldering is the new default, it is the most common thing a taffer will do with a body, while ragdoll manipulation is the new special action for specific situations.

Thanks! 1) Doing LONG_PRESS PAD_A (what I, for lack of knowledge, call "jump-mantle" or "_jumpmantle") differs from doing PRESS PAD_A ("_jump"). "_jumpmantle" differs from "_mantle", so they must be mapped to different button-calls. "_jumpmantle" differs from "_jump", so they must also be mapped to different button-calls. This appears to be the case, but it is not evident (or changeable) in DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. "_jumpmantle" seems to be hard coded to always connect to the same button as "_jump" but with a long press. It is as if bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" is not actually just binding PRESS PAD_A to "_jump", but rather interpreted as "link PAD_A (regardless of button press time) to behave exactly like keyboard SPACE for short and long presses". I would have expected the default DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to explicitly read: bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_A "_jumpmantle" bindPadButton PRESS PAD_B "_crouch" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_B "_mantle" ... but neither LONG_PRESS PAD_A or "_jumpmantle" is listed in the file. If there are actions "_jump" and "_mantle", I suppose there must also be an action "_jumpmantle" since it is possible for the player to do all those movements: * "_mantle" does the movements "crouch on the high surface, then stand up" * "_jumpmantle" idoes the movements "jump slightly forward, then land standing on the high surface" * "_jump" idoes the movements "jump up, then land exactly where you started" If the actions "_jump" and "_moveup" are not synonymous, then perhaps the action "_moveup" is what i call "_jumpmantle"? 2) Thanks for the link! It was useful in more than one way. I'll link to that page from https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Bindings_and_User_Settings#Gamepad_Default_Bindings if I can get an account on the wiki, which proved more difficult than i thought (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22327-how-can-i-create-an-account-on-the-tdm-wiki/). However, it does not answer my question how to find out the name ("<button>") used for a button on my gamepad. Basically, I would need to press the button on my gamepad and some program could tell me "That button is called 'PAD_A'". In my case, I have a gamepad "Logitech F310" (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_F310_Gamepad.jpg) which has a "Logitech button" (see image) that I want to use. I was hoping to find out the "button name" for that button and then edit DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to map it to a function. 3) ... but if that button has an "unusual name" that TDM does not recognize, then it may perhaps not work. E.g. if that button is called "PAD_LOGITECH" and TDM cannot recognize that name, then I cannot map anything to it via DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. Using QJoyPad I can map any keyboard key to it instead, as a workaround, but I cannot map MODIFIER to it (since MODIFIER cannot be set to a keyboard key). If current implementation is still called "experimental", then I must say it works very well; @cabalistic: kudos for that! I may not have continued playing TDM had it not worked with a gamepad.

It is possible that this is a setting that needs to be activated to work: https://mantisbt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23221

Thanks, that would be one of the issues down. Could you also make it so when both creep and run are set to toggle, toggling one on also turns the other off? This way whenever you come out of running or creeping, you know you'll be back to walking instead of jumping straight to the other mode. Currently creeping blocks running entirely, you need to manually turn it off before the run toggle works at all which can be inconvenient if want to just jump to the mode of the key you pressed. I've always wondered if the HUD and menu graphics could be modernized to be a little more high resolution: We could surely have a nicer looking lightgem, one that actually looks more like a gem and maybe makes light level even clearer. I've tinkered with the HUD and could technically look at it, but I'm working on several projects now and don't even know for sure what changes would be accepted in vanilla. Hope someone else can provide more feedback and maybe take a look! Can't say I'm a big fan of the current crouch indicator in general: It's two decorations on the side of the lightgem that stretch to the bottom of the screen, makes the point clear but looks kind of ugly. I can't readily think of anything else that wouldn't be distracting though. Normally we could use an icon indicating posture as a silhouette of the person, but that might be too large and distracting and modern looking... the later issue can be fixed by making it more like a symbol carved into a rune.

When you have no mission selected, it shows there are no missions installed.

Yeah this isn't new. Or at least I have seen it in multiple missions also in 2.11 I think. Btw. it can be useful to include your position in the screenshot. See:

Ooooh so many interesting ideas! We had a similar story at one point, where the player has to pose as an acolyte and investigate the death of the former high priest, talking to several members, finding a way to enter the restricted area... After a while setting up all the triggers and conversations and scripts turned into a huge PITA - although it was quite funny to start a conversation and then walk off, having them talk to thin air I'll see to it that our story is not too similar. Although also placing our mission in the same universe and have some familiar characters appear (or at least being mentioned) would be a nice idea. I like stories with multiple possible endings Looks like I have to (re)play some TDM missions then. Mmh, we do have a library, but it is probably too small for such a degree of labyrinthinity.