Thief-like stories.

[etdarkb]

If you had to suggest the story for the `official*' TDM campaign what would you suggest?

While you should suggest something Ga...briel unrelated, try to keep something `on the lines:'

- Neutral beginning;

- Wrong friends/actions/employers and consequent mess;

- Fixing the mess;

- Epic sized final.

 

Or just ignore those lines: I am interested about yours stories**...

 

 

*official would mean: included in the default package... Nothing more.

**I am not connected with the TDM team(thanks again), it is just curiosity of mine.

[Springheel]

We had a campaign planned out at one point, years back. I'm not sure I'd want to use it now if we ever went that route though. It was a little too "epic".

[Diego]

It would be really awesome if the 'official TDM team' released a campaign. Save some big improvements to be released with the campaign in a TDM 2.0! huh? huh? whaddayathink??

 

BTW, I don't know if this was mentioned before, but this forum really needs a dancing banana!

[etdarkb]

If we get a decent story we can split it in levels and then giving them to the various mappers and finally include all the level in the `standard download' as the training mission. Thats is what I was thinking.

Springheel, can you describe the story a little? I do not think the `epicness' is actually a problem: do not forget in Thief 1 G. saves the world and in Thief 2 he saves at least whole the city.

 

A little dive in the past...

Garrett: If you hadn't noticed, I just saved the world. Yourself included.

Keeper: As we knew you would. As it had to be.

Garrett: Now I remember why I left the Keepers.

Keeper: And I remember why we let you go.

 

Garrett: If we can get into the Mechanist cathedral, if you fill it with plants, if I can find, let alone activate the beacon, all without being detected?! that's too risky. We'll be killed!

Viktoria: Karras created these devices to destroy all that we know. And now they're in place, he needs only say the word. There is no more time. We must act. Are you too blind to see that?

and

Keeper: They've all... gone. What will we do? What will become of The City without us?

Hammerite: The Builder hath returned his Chalice to us!

Pagan: Them Jacknall's Paw! It bes comesy back to us!

I think is somewhat an overdose of epicness.

 

The real problem I can imagine is that giving an `official' storyline the mapper will be limited in their fantasy.

Just think of many fan maps has been done with G. as main character while it was no way necessary. If we create a wonderful main character in a epic sized mission we might fall in the same problem, yet I saw there

is already a somewhat established settings, factions and phenomena... so yeah.

[Springheel]

If we get a decent story we can split it in levels and then giving them to the various mappers and finally include all the level in the `standard download' as the training mission. Thats is what I was thinking.

 

That's easily said, but you're describing a massive, two or three year project, at best. There's no shortage of people who are willing to come up with cool stories--that's by FAR the easiest part of the process. The hard part is doing the actual mapping.

 

I don't think anyone should be even talking about a campaign until they have completed their fist TDM fan mission. Until then it's impossible to have any clear idea of how much work is involved.

 

Springheel, can you describe the story a little? I do not think the `epicness' is actually a problem: do not forget in Thief 1 G. saves the world and in Thief 2 he saves at least whole the city.

 

Yes, but those epic "superhero" stories are not really what TDM is all about. In my personal opinion, the worst Thief missions are the final missions of each game, where they try to pit Garrett against the villain of the story so he can "save the day". The best ones were always the small scale stories, like Ambushed or Shalebridge Cradle, or even Baffords.

[etdarkb]

The hard part is doing the actual mapping.

I don't think anyone should be even talking about a campaign until they have completed their fist TDM fan mission. Until then it's impossible to have any clear idea of how much work is involved.

I do not write a map since the time of Quake 3 (oh dear, so old...), it is indeed a quite lengthy process: this is why I thought about giving a single level per person. A single map would cover few weeks?

But it is not actually the point, this thread is about listening and writing stories...

 

 

Yes, but those epic "superhero" stories are not really what TDM is all about. In my personal opinion, the worst Thief missions are the final missions of each game, where they try to pit Garrett against the villain of the story so he can "save the day". The best ones were always the small scale stories, like Ambushed or Shalebridge Cradle, or even Baffords.

I see your point, but I actually disagree. I think some of the beauty of the Thief series is in the escalation: you start as a capable thief stealing for yourself or at most helping friends or associated (Basso or Cutty), but soon you have to accept a larger fate is your shoulders and the escalation continues until the epic finale of Thief 3.

[New Horizon]

I see your point, but I actually disagree. I think some of the beauty of the Thief series is in the escalation: you start as a capable thief stealing for yourself or at most helping friends or associated (Basso or Cutty), but soon you have to accept a larger fate is your shoulders and the escalation continues until the epic finale of Thief 3.

 

Yet a story can escalate without going to extremes. Thief wasn't really about Boss fights. I think it would be far more interesting to make the story more about the players internal and external struggles. If we were to go down that road and make a small campaign, that's what I would like to see...something that delivered a more philosophical experience. Dealing with the player's own survival and not 'save the world' event gaming.

[lostbuthappy]

I see your point, but I actually disagree. I think some of the beauty of the Thief series is in the escalation: you start as a capable thief stealing for yourself or at most helping friends or associated (Basso or Cutty), but soon you have to accept a larger fate is your shoulders and the escalation continues until the epic finale of Thief 3.

That's possibly the only thing I didn't like about the thief games, as I feel that when lg tried to proceed the story ingame it often had a severe impact on gameplay, as the game itself is slow paced and the number one goal is not to let anything dramatic happen. On the other hand, if you don't reflect the urgency of the story within the game, it feels bland and artificial and as engaging as a warm summer breeze. I still like the "landlord's an arse" and "get the recording from the banks vault", as that is what the gameplay is all about.

I often asked myself if there's a way to tell a convincing, satisfying story without destroying the sneaksy gameplay. Assassin's Creed tried to escalate the story by throwing loads of enemies at you, system shock 2 just feigned death and bioshock... ah where are my pills.

I think the only more or less satisfying story was that of splinter cell. Sure, it had all those terrorists, WOD Tom Clancy warmongering stuff in it, but I can deal with that. The ending was priceless. Fisher just went home after punching the clock (figuratively speaking) as if he did this kind of thing every day and although that's a bit disappointing at first it's exactly what I wanted to see.

[demagogue]

We're not necessarily tied down to the Thief way of story telling. It might be interesting to see a more Deus Ex/Vampire:BL style of story telling where there are lots of readables and NPCs to talk to, and maybe an alternation of game-play scenes (jobs) sprinkled with occasional story-only scenes, and some scenes that mix the two ... Also maybe a few "regular" areas and NPCs DX-style, like a Thieves HQ or in the castle, but that avoid the problems T3 had with full-on open-roam streets. It's all up to the writing and creativity and discretion of the team, but the sky's the limit.

[etdarkb]

NPCs to talk to? It that even possible?

I would like a `doom3' approach where you never talk, but you can at least listen.

I am not actually sure the way `point and click adventure' would be good, adding the possibility of multiple answers makes the game too much rpg...

What do you think about this too?

[New Horizon]

I'm personally not interested in taking things in an RPG direction. I felt T3 went too far with that.

[Springheel]

I think conversations (either between two AI or to the player) are highly under-utilized in TDM at the moment. The code for conversations is there, but no one has actually used it (other than one WIP map by someone that disappeared).

[Goldchocobo]

I think conversations (either between two AI or to the player) are highly under-utilized in TDM at the moment. The code for conversations is there, but no one has actually used it (other than one WIP map by someone that disappeared).

 

My missions have a massive use of chit chat between player and NPC, as well as between 2 AI.

[aidakeeley]

IMO, the more story (conversations, banter, chit-chat, readables, grumblings, mumblings, lore) the better. Absolutely.

[Neb]

I'm all for conversing with AIs. The adventure game style that has made it's way into some of the T2 FMs has really rocked my world. Vegabond by Random Taffer is a prime example. It works so well by downplaying immediate stealth. The minimalist approach along with variety makes it so much fun for me, and makes the stealth sections so much more precious. It's also a brilliant example of a non-Garrett mission, having you start out destitute and in search of somewhere safe to eat and sleep, but necessity takes you deeper into a terrible situation.

 

I see the mod (and also Thief fan missions) as a brilliant way of expressing stories of entwined lives through architecture, and playing as an outsider, violating personal space to uncover the mystery behind them. Talking to people in-game seems like a step backwards, but it really draws a sharp line between where you're welcome and where you're not. It's a bit like moving from shadow to shadow, but it's more related to how the people in the world tick.

[etdarkb]

The sharp line between unwanted and welcome... This the point! Simple and effective way to say the point, congrats.

[plasticman]

I'd like to see hear more conversations between AI and AI. But I also understand mappers need time to do that -- if one of your npcs has a few extra lines not provided by the mod you still have to record a complete voice set, so the idle sounds match the npcs voice. Maybe that's to much work for just a small mission.

 

For conversations between player and npcs I am unsure how it would turn out. It worked in Deus Ex where there was always a strong visible player character. Thief's Garrett usually has a not so talkative way of dealing with people -- he's a mystery for the most part.

 

It didn't work for me when TDS broke it. They had Pagans and Hammers fraternising with Garrett. And I have weird memories of a widow on some remote island asking for wine.

[Springheel]

if one of your npcs has a few extra lines not provided by the mod you still have to record a complete voice set, so the idle sounds match the npcs voice. Maybe that's to much work for just a small mission.

 

By the time you write the vocals script, record the performance, save all the files, and create a soundshader, you're looking at more than a dozen hours of work.

 

It would be much more reasonable to just record the conversation and try and mimic an existing vocal set.