German terminology

[7upMan]

Dear German speaking community members,

 

As mentioned in the thread for the German translation of Living Expenses by Sonosuke (Der verborgene Segen), I'd like to ask you for suggestions on how to translate the following keywords:

 

the Builders

 

Master Builder

 

Lord Builder

 

The reason I'm asking this is that "Master Builder" in the Thief series was translated as "Der Erbauer". This however collides with the name of the TDM faction "the Builders", who would be translated "die Erbauer". To solve this issue (and to find a widley accepted standard translation) I've made this poll. Please select the translation you like best, or suggest one of your own if you don't find a suitable one among the provided options. I'm open for every proposal.

 

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Liebe deutsprachige Community-Mitglieder,

 

wie im Thread zu Living Expenses dt. Version (Der verborgene Segen) angedeutet, möchte ich eine Umfrage unter den deutsprachigen TDM-Spielern machen, wie die folgenden Schlüsselbegriffe zu übersetzen sind:

 

the Builders

 

Master Builder

 

Lord Builder

 

Der Hintergrund ist der, dass "Master Builder" in der Thief-Serie als "Der Erbauer" übersetzt wurde. Das kollidiert aber mit dem Namen der TDM-Fraktion "the Builders", was "die Erbauer" wäre. Um dieses Problem zu lösen und möglichst eine allgemein akzeptierte Standardübersetzung zu schaffen, habe ich daher diese Umfrage gestartet. Bitte klickt an, welcher Vorschlag Euch am besten gefällt, oder nennt andernfalls einen Gegenvorschlag. Ich bin für alles offen.

 

Ich bitte um rege Teilnahme und danke im Voraus!

 

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EDIT: I've added another option (marked as NEW:), so if anyone who already voted like this better, please delete your vote and vote again. Sorry if there is any confusion, I won't add any new suggestions.

Edited September 14, 2012 by 7upMan

[Mortem Desino]

As a clergy student, I'll jump in with my opinion.

 

In the Martin Luther translation of the Bible (Gemeindeutsch), "HERR Gott" is consistantly used for "LORD God." If we want "The Lord Builder" to have a religious connotation, "Herr Erbauer" is probably the way to do it.

 

The same applies for "Master Builder". Luther liked to use "HERR allmächtiger Gott" for "The LORD God Almighty". Once again "Allmächtiger Erbauer" might be the way to go if you want to add the religious connotation.

 

I've got no strong opinion for "Builders". I'd lean towards "die Bauer", just to show that the Builder Church shows respect and a little humility towards the name of their god. "die Werker" would also be a good humble name for members of the church.

[STiFU]

"die Bauer" is critical, because you can only use it in the plural version. The singular has a totally different meaning... "der Bauer" means "farmer". But since you might want to address an individual by e.g. "That builder over there is wielding his hammer like a girl", this is not suitable. "Werker" would fit in both cases here... 7upman, you should also edit the first poll to "The builders / the builder" to make clear that the singular also has to fit well.

[plasticman]

Der Hintergrund ist der, dass "Master Builder" in der Thief-Serie als "Der Erbauer" übersetzt wurde. Das kollidiert aber mit dem Namen der TDM-Fraktion "the Builders", was "die Erbauer" wäre.

Maybe I don't get it but isn't it the same in original TDM? The Master Builder in Thief is often referred to as "builder" while TDM Hammerite substitutes go by "builders". So the "Collision" is already there, no need to avoid it in a translation.

 

I'd go for

 

Builders -- Die Erbauer

Works for singular as well and alludes to "(geistige) Erbauung" (building up someone in a spiritual sense).

 

Master Builder -- DER Erbauer

Would be identical with the singular form for "Builders" but that's a non-issue. In medievial philosophy Aristotle often is refenced as "the philosopher" and it worked fine for several hundred years without confusing anyone.

 

Lord Builder -- Der HErr Erbauer

No way to translate it as "Lord". If you say "Lord" in German it always refers to a person, never to a god.

 

Good luck with your work!

[7upMan]

Folks, while waking up this morning it just stuck me that we no nothing of the Master Builder and his origins. Who was he, who is he? The answer to this question could solve all of our problems. I've sent Springheel a PM with this question, but in case anyone of you has given the topic extensive thought please post them.

 

My idea (also got it this morning) is that if the Master Builder was in fact the First Builder (Erster Erbauer), he could also be referred to as the First Founder (Der Erste Gründer) or just The Founder (Der Begründer). While this would immediately lead to the problem that TDM can't display and special characters (like Umlauts), it would at least help with the clarification.

 

The Followers of the Master Builder could then also be called The Founders (Die Gründer). 

 

Please tell me what you think.

 

 

[Springheel]

"Master Builder" and "Lord Builder" are both synonyms for "God".

 

From the wiki:

Since the Builders believe in a single god, they often refer to Him simply as, "God" (as in, "God bless thy works"). Just like in our own history, however, there are many other names used for God, including, "The Almighty", "The Lord Builder" or, "The Master Builder". The more formal the occasion, the longer and more elaborate the name tends to get (eg. "The Almighty Lord Builder, Master and Creator of All Things").

 

 

Other tidbits:

 

The head of the church is known as the Patriarch.

 

The religion has at least one early prophet, named Amos.

[7upMan]

Okay, then Amos is the TDM analog for Jesus, was was after all the founder of the Christian belief? And would that make Amos the First Builder?

[Springheel]

It's never been specified who the "Founder" of the religion is. The Builder faith is more of an "Old Testament" kind of religion, so we're looking for a Moses or Abraham-type figure more than a "messiah".

 

Amos could certainly be considered the "Moses" of the faith, perhaps recording the first scriptures...I'm pretty sure St. Lucia refers to the "Book of Amos", though I can't check right now to be sure.

[7upMan]

Okay, then Amos is in fact the First Builder? Or is he just the person who proclaimed the belief of the Master Builder?

[STiFU]

Since the Builders believe in a single god, they often refer to Him simply as, "God" (as in, "God bless thy works"). Just like in our own history, however, there are many other names used for God, including, "The Almighty", "The Lord Builder" or, "The Master Builder". The more formal the occasion, the longer and more elaborate the name tends to get (eg. "The Almighty Lord Builder, Master and Creator of All Things").[/Quote]

This is why I was saying we don't need to decide on one single name for god all along. My suggestion was to call him "Erbauer" mainly, because it sounds religious and fits in well with the beliefs of the builders. Variety can be introduced by adding adjectives like almighty, omniscient, omnipresent, righteous or making substantives of them "the almighty, the omniscient" etc.

 

Besides the faction/god confusion with "builders / builder", I also think that "die Erbauer" and "der Erbauer" (describing an individual builder) does not sound very nice to me. I prefer "Werker" because it's short, sounds good and can be used without confusion. And again, it also fits well with the beliefs of the faction, even more than "Erbauer" itself I guess, because "Werker" concentrates a lot more on the tools.

[7upMan]

Well, if Werker gets the most votes, I'm all for it. But in the end, all players who vote in this poll have a say in this matter, regardless of what I'd prefer. So please everyone, flock to this thread and VOTE!   

[Springheel]

Okay, then Amos is in fact the First Builder? Or is he just the person who proclaimed the belief of the Master Builder?

 

I'm not sure thinking in terms of a "first builder" is very useful. To the Builders themselves, the first Builder would probably be the first man created by God (our "Adam" equivalent). To others, it might be the first prophet (which could be Amos). Others might consider the first Emperor to make the Builder religion the official religion of the Empire (our "Constantine" equivalent).

 

Or are you thinking about a "Peter" figure, who is considered the very first member of the actual Church?

[7upMan]

Well, my thinking went more in the direction of, say, Buddha, who can be considered the founder of Buddhism. If there ever was a person who became a spiritual leader and preached the way of the craftsmanship and making nature a tool of man, he could be considered the First Builder. 

[Mortem Desino]

"Book of Amos" could be just like one of the Hebrew old testament books of the prophets. In fact, there was a minor prophet named Amos. Any more books and prophets still have to be generated concerning the builder church.

 

At the moment, revering the "First Builder" doesn't sound at all like the "Holy Roman Catholic" analogue that TDM is following. Phoebadius of Agen (c. 394 A.D.) warns the clergy vehemently against the near-worship of such figures.

 

About the translation, I really like STiFU's reasoning behind "Werker."

I prefer "Werker" because it's short, sounds good and can be used without confusion. And again, it also fits well with the beliefs of the faction, even more than "Erbauer" itself I guess, because "Werker" concentrates a lot more on the tools.

Then 'Erbauer' and 'Gott' can be as unmistakable as the English 'LORD (YHWH)' and 'God'.

[Tels]

This is why I was saying we don't need to decide on one single name for god all along. My suggestion was to call him "Erbauer" mainly, because it sounds religious and fits in well with the beliefs of the builders. Variety can be introduced by adding adjectives like almighty, omniscient, omnipresent, righteous or making substantives of them "the almighty, the omniscient" etc.

 

Besides the faction/god confusion with "builders / builder", I also think that "die Erbauer" and "der Erbauer" (describing an individual builder) does not sound very nice to me. I prefer "Werker" because it's short, sounds good and can be used without confusion. And again, it also fits well with the beliefs of the faction, even more than "Erbauer" itself I guess, because "Werker" concentrates a lot more on the tools.

 

Yeah, I think the name of "god" can change arbitrarily without others failing to recognize him. "He who laid the first stone, has spoken to me" would still refer to god. That means "Der oberste Erbauer" etc are not that critical. However, the followers of the church are more important, due to the "die bauer/der bauer" as well as "der Erbauer (god)/der Erbauer (follower)" conflict.

[Tels]

About the translation, I really like STiFU's reasoning behind "Werker."

 

It can be totally exchanged for "Schaffer":

 

I prefer "Schaffer" because it's short, sounds good and can be used without confusion. And again, it also fits well with the beliefs of the faction, even more than "Erbauer" itself I guess, because "Schaffer" concentrates a lot more on the tools.

 

Just saying.

[7upMan]

Okay, the general direction seems to be as follows:

 

the Builders: die Werker

 

Master Builder: (Allmächtiger) Erbauer

 

Lord Builder: Herr Erbauer

 

I do hope we'll find a few more German speaking voters, but I like where we are going right now well enough. With this settled soon, I can finally start working on Melan's Return to the City, which will be a hell to work on, but extremely rewarding none the less.

 

 

[7upMan]

It can be totally exchanged for "Schaffer":  Just saying.

 

Find me a few ppl to vote for Schaffer, and I'm fine with it too. It really comes down to how many of us are going to vote. With 4 to 1 against your vote things seem settled, but there are at least Angua and greebo who speak German too, and with Sonosuke in tow you can rock the vote easily.

[STiFU]

It can be totally exchanged for "Schaffer".

Now explain to me slowly in what way "Schaffer" concentrates on the tools? When it comes down to this, "Schaffer" is the word that represents working with tools the least together with "Gründer".

 

Werker > Erbauer > Bauer > Schaffer > Gründer

 

I'd be comfy with the god being called "Erschaffer" from time to time though.

[7upMan]

Like in "Unser Herr Erbauer, der Erschaffer der Welt"?

[Tels]

I do hope we'll find a few more German speaking voters, but I like where we are going right now well enough. With this settled soon, I can finally start working on Melan's Return to the City, which will be a hell to work on, but extremely rewarding none the less.

 

I think we have way too little votes. If we have maybe 100 or more people, but with like only 10 voting it is easy skewed.

[Tels]

Now explain to me slowly in what way "Schaffer" concentrates on the tools? When it comes down to this, "Schaffer" is the word that represents working with tools the least together with "Gründer".

 

So, jemand er etwas "erschafft", benutzt keine Werkzeuge? Ah. Reine Gedankenkraft, also? Aber selbst wenn, durch "meine hände arbeit erschaffen" kommt auch ohne werkzeuge aus, und trotzdem hab ich etwas "gebaut".

 

"Schaffer" kommt von "erschaffen". Warum es von "Werkzeug" kommen muss, erklärt sich mir nicht.

 

Werker > Erbauer > Bauer > Schaffer > Gründer

 

Der Erklärung kann ich nicht wirklich folgen. "Schaffer" ist ein Kunstwort und warum es weniger aussagekräftig als "erbauer", "werker" aber mehr sein soll, erschliesst sich mir nicht wirklich. Und selbst wenn es so wäre, wir sprechen hier über eine Fantasiewelt. Da muss nicht alles logisch sein. (Aber "Fantasievoll", das wäre wünschenswert.) Leider scheint das hier ja richtig "Beamtenmässig" durchgeplant zu werden *seufz* Am Ende fragen wir noch nen Germanistikprofessor, er soll uns eine neue Grammatik ausarbeiten..

 

Anyway, da ich aller vorraussicht nach TDM nie auf deutsch spielen werde, erschöpfen sich meine Beiträge von nun auf meine bereits abgegebene vote. Viel erfolg!

[7upMan]

Don't worry. It will be at least one week until I can start with RttC, mainly due to a job issues. And besides, before I really start I have Too Late for translation (mainly because it doesn't contain any Builders). Nielsen just gave me permission, so I can start with his map whenever I can find the time. I think it's save to expect a release in the end of next week.

 

I think we have way too little votes. If we have maybe 100 or more people, but with like only 10 voting it is easy skewed.

 

Then go forth, and give everyone who knows even a little bit of German a hearty kick, and point them to this poll! 

 

 

[STiFU]

Ah now I realized what I dislike so much about "Herr Erbauer". You just would never say that in german, but you couldn't know that you old atheist... :-P Joking aside, you'd rather say stuff like "Unser Herr, der Erbauer, der Erschaffer der Welt" or "Oh Herr, bitte segne uns", but not "Herr Erbauer", which sounds too much as if he was human, again. "Master Builder" gives a totally different impression than "Herr Erbauer" to me.

[7upMan]

Leider scheint das hier ja richtig "Beamtenmässig" durchgeplant zu werden *seufz* Am Ende fragen wir noch nen Germanistikprofessor, er soll uns eine neue Grammatik ausarbeiten..

 

Ich weiß, das war ironisch gemeint, aber es wäre schon irgendwo toll: die könnte man dann auch gut für andere Projekte weiterverwenden. Für HdRO hätten wir sowas gut gebrauchen können... 

 

 

Anyway, da ich aller vorraussicht nach TDM nie auf deutsch spielen werde, erschöpfen sich meine Beiträge von nun auf meine bereits abgegebene vote. Viel erfolg!

Das ist sehr schade. Weißt Du, aus Erfahrung weiß ich auch, dass man heftig in die Bredouille kommt, wenn man solche Begriffe vorher nicht klärt. Das kann eine Unternehmenssoftware, ein südkoreanischer Kühlschrank oder irgendwas aus Herr der Ringe Online sein. Ich kenne (und fürchte) es, wenn das Team feststellt, dass wir uns begrifflich in eine Sackgasse manövriert haben. Dann geht das Wehgeschrei erst so richtig los, und es wird fieberhaft nach Alternativen gesucht und zum Schluss meistens ein halbgarer Kompromiss gewählt.

 

 

Klar, ich mache das hier allein, und an sich könnte ich mir einfach irgendwas herauspicken, aber ich finde, die Diskussion hier hat schon eine Menge gebracht. Falls Du Dich wirklich zurückziehst, danke ich Dir auf jeden Fall für die bisherige Unterstützung!