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Bridgeport set in stone


pigtailsboy
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I've been toying with the idea of trying my hand at dark radiant. Their are so few available missions at this time and it seems like most of the action involving tdm is going on in the mapping and modding groups. I don't have the experience yet with 3d modeling so practice is needed. I've set myself to the task of researching, from the wiki, tdm world so I can fit into it as best I can if I get around to putting something together. It would be an interesting task to bring something new to this. I've been brain storming and I've thought of a couple things that would make mission creation less of a chore.

 

On the wiki there's a vague map of bridgeport. It goes part way in describing visually what the city's shape is like but it falls short of representing the city's size and complexity. I know that describing the city explicitly would present contradictions with many maps but I think a more complex street layout, as well as markers for major landmarks and topographical features would ease things a bit. Where are the city counsel structures, where is this hill, what are the districts called and where are they located? Answers for those questions would provide detail and unity to all the maps released, if authors choose to follow the general mold.

 

A general time line with major events past. A time line could also be continually updated over the months with ideas from the community on developments in city and the world at large. These more recent events could impact the overall picture and provide authors with material and inspiration. Wars, shortages, famine, substantial political struggle and invention. The thought of what a steam engine's impact could have on the time period is mind bending. A flotilla in the harbor mouth could disrupt the entire city for months. The introduction of a new religious or political sect could change a society in due course. All this could provide more of a feeling of motion and progress in tdm universe.

 

 

Outside of my suggestions I have some questions to ask. Is the world of bridgeport largely English based? And is this the world we know or is it entirely fictitious, from land masses, countries and cultures and overall history? It seems like it's all based in reality, only that this is the midevil world where there's a technological rise without a societal rise to balance it.

 

 

If any of this is tldr I'll summerize.

Edited by pigtailsboy
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If any of this is tldr I'll summerize.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that a community of players, used to waiting in the shadows and sneaking around, probably has a long attention span, and doesn't require its information in tiny bites. :rolleyes:

Edited by Tch
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I think it's pretty safe to assume that a community of players, used to waiting in the shadows and sneaking around, probably has a long attention span, and doesn't require its information in tiny bites. :rolleyes:

 

:o Wrong! I want the TDM bow replaced with a crossbow. You know, the one from that 2004 Van Helsing movie that's like a machine gun. I also want 2.5x player maximum running velocity and a new FM every day. As for information, I don't know what that first guy is trying to say and all in-game readables need to be able to fit on an index card.

 

Can we get this rolling within the next 48 hours? I'm bored and feeling entitled.

 

FNW50NHG1QWB4FI.MEDIUM.jpg

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And! and! and! all the female characters need to have big ti... boo... chests and have to look as AWEsome as that chick from Van Helsing too! Yeah, that'd ROCK LOL FTW!!!111 

 

 

 

 

 

But actually, I have had the exact same thought myself. My thinking was to take the city map of a medieval German city and to build a map of Bridgeport around it. As some of you will know, the higher ups had to take several things into consideration when planning the layout of a city. The streets ad to be layed out in such a way that in case of an attack, defending them was easier. Also, they had to be wide enough to allow fire wagons to pass though in case of fires, etc.

 

Here are links to the city maps of  Freiberg and  Ulm. I'm sure that with a little more time spent on the Wikipedia, one could come up with some very useful city maps that'd help in creating a convincing Bridgeport. 

 

The same goes for the timeline. I also had the thought to collect all the info given in the individual FMs and to seek the community's support to create the past, recent and future history of Bridgeport, where it is made easier to establish links between different FMs from different authors. Say, due to  

the killing of the Lord

in  The Sons of Baltona made by Carnage the guards in  Living Expenses made by Sonosuke are much more alert. Or vice versa. Or something like that. 

 

The reason why I had dropped that idea is that this would be a huge task, and I'm already swamped as it is. So pigtailsboy, if you are into it, go on! And while you're at it, you could create a Wiki page for every mission up to date, listing the contents and naming the main protagonists of the respective story.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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See, the streets on those maps are too neat, too orderly. When I think of the City, I think of places like:

 

post-2023-127444559406_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444560572_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444561869_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444563207_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444580856_thumb.jpg

 

Narrow, winding, chaotic and irregular. And that's also why it is better left hazy and uncertain, at least "officially".

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Narrow, winding, chaotic and irregular. And that's also why it is better left hazy and uncertain, at least "officially".

 

Excuse my language, but I have to say those images are fucking awesome! Are you going to use thos in your next map, or can the rest of use use it for inspiration..?

 

Btw, wait till you see my new map, its very chaotic - very T2.

Edited by Bikerdude
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Bikerdude: I am collecting them for inspiration; some of the ideas may make their way into the beginning of my next (not really city oriented) map. But look at that last one, which is a street from a Bulgarian town: pure thiefiness!

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Narrow, winding, chaotic and irregular. And that's also why it is better left hazy and uncertain, at least "officially

 

Agreed on both counts.

 

The wiki has to tread a fine line between giving mappers enough information to inform and inspire them, and still leaving plenty of room for them to create their own vision.

 

Trying to set Bridgeport in stone (especially at this early date) is a mammoth task with little benefit. Better to let the city grow organically (through mission development) over the next few years. Good maps will establish specific locations (and characters) in people's minds.

 

As things become established, I add them to the wiki pages. But I'd rather have things grow from completed missions rather than a top-down approach.

 

We could do with a thread where we share images.

 

At one point I posted a series of inspirational pictures (including some of the above) for mappers. I'll see if I can find it and move it to the public forums.

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At one point I posted a series of inspirational pictures (including some of the above) for mappers. I'll see if I can find it and move it to the public forums.

If you do, I can add the highlights of my collection to it. Some are from the Internet, some from my own travels around Europe, and there are even some from a few books on mediaeval architecture I picked up cheap on a Berlin flea market.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Maybe this here helps a bit more: it's a city view of Meissen, a town I live not far from. Please note especially the bridge and the big church, and the streets of Meißen resemble almost exactly the photos Melan posted. 

 

Trying to set Bridgeport in stone (especially at this early date) is a mammoth task with little benefit.  Better to let the city grow organically (through mission development) over the next few years.  Good maps will establish specific locations (and characters) in people's minds.

 

As things become established, I add them to the wiki pages.  But I'd rather have things grow from completed missions rather than a top-down approach.

 

I do agree. However, using the material that already exists (in terms of the preliminary Bridgeport map and the places in the released FMs) and to combine them into one source (be it a Wiki entry or a map) is already possible. Anyway, this will be a mammoth task, so honestly I don't see anyone step forward and be the first one to attempt it.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Better to let the city grow organically (through mission development) over the next few years. Good maps will establish specific locations (and characters) in people's minds.

 

As things become established, I add them to the wiki pages. But I'd rather have things grow from completed missions rather than a top-down approach.

 

Exactly. This is how real cities actually develop.

 

I tried to develop a neighborhood in Bridgeport in my FM, on the border between the uptown district and the more commercial districts.

 

I also went to some effort to make the streets a little "irregular" and sloping with vertical variation, and it still came across as somewhat regular and "flat". It's tough work making believably organic streets, but we've seen glimpses of it in some FMs, so I'm optimistic. (")-b

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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At one point I posted a series of inspirational pictures (including some of the above) for mappers. I'll see if I can find it and move it to the public forums.

Are you saying there's a lot of information that would be useful to people who are starting to dabble with the editor, like me, which is hidden away from us? I would think you'd want it all to be public at this point, to encourage more FMs.

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As for information, I don't know what that first guy is trying to say and all in-game readables need to be able to fit on an index card.

 

Reminds me, those intros at the beginning. Who ever did the speaking part for one of the early one's should be convinced to voice all the intros. Would provide the proper pacing since there are a few fan missions that scroll to fast.

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I really would appreciate such a wiki about places, timelines and 'events'. But I think it´s too early for such a thing. Because until now we haven´t seen much of Bridgeport (though I still haven´t played all FMs yet) and like Demagogue said, the City is developing right now. But I hope that future missions will even fit into Bridgeport!.

 

In Thief 1/2 I really like the City with it´s districts and was happy to see maps (like the one that showed the talismans) but sadly I saw very few FM´s that fitted into this places. I would really like to 'recognize' places in FM that I saw in others or heard of. Not exactly the same terrain, but different viewpoints. Something like an Big Clock-tower or big Monuments/places that make you feel you are in Bridgeport. I hope we will see/experience such things in future missions. Because that´s something I always missed in most Thief FMs. I hope you know what I mean with this... (it´s 7:30 in the morning and I haven´t slept this night)

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Damn I'm gunna be double and triple posting here at this rate. Wasn't expecting a heavy response.

 

My thinking was to take the city map of a medieval German city and to build a map of Bridgeport around it. As some of you will know, the higher ups had to take several things into consideration when planning the layout of a city. The streets ad to be layed out in such a way that in case of an attack, defending them was easier. Also, they had to be wide enough to allow fire wagons to pass though in case of fires, etc.

 

Here are links to the city maps of Freiberg and Ulm. I'm sure that with a little more time spent on the Wikipedia, one could come up with some very useful city maps that'd help in creating a convincing Bridgeport.

If the whole city is written off in complete detail that will take much of the fun and creativity out of mapping for authors. I'm thinking a vague map, but more detailed than the one on the wiki. Major thoroughfares, landmarks, districts, areas of political influence, topography. The winding streets would be a painful procedure to detail... it could be done but it would be more than likely to be ignored. Landmarks like the greater church (has this one been done yet?), counsel chambers, clock tower (there will probably be lots of these, due to such a large city as well as it being industrial midevil europe), certain stately homes. There will probably be a long list of ideas as for landmarks. districts and where they are and what they're famed for seems VITAL to me. Topography (like the hill mentioned on the wiki) influence the layout of the city and can change the pace and feel of a mission.

 

From what I've read so far I'm not certain bridgeport is designed. As old as it is it's grown from what it was. Some areas will seem well thought out like a central area and the most outlying districts will be more deliberate but it's still a city that's grown and as such it's going to appear nonsensical. Look at London, Paris, Washington. I doubt there are any fire wagons, even in this industrialized city... a line of bucket men maybe or they might even be so advanced as to have water mains but no one has instituted something like that in missions so far so it's probably a far off idea. As it is the streets are to narrow and winding and narrow to allow for that kind of service. A building will likely be saved by locals, trying to help and save the district or it will just burn down. A city so complicated would thwart invaders because they have no knowledge of it's streets.

 

It doesn't really apply here but I recall viewing a show featuring a city besieged during the second war. It was so old that over it's existence the people had build all the houses and structures together, bridging all most all gaps crossing it's streets, creating a single structure. It became a shelter in it's self because no matter where you went you would find shelter from the bombs. And the city was so old and complex that anyone who entered might become lost.

 

The same goes for the timeline. I also had the thought to collect all the info given in the individual FMs and to seek the community's support to create the past, recent and future history of Bridgeport, where it is made easier to establish links between different FMs from different authors.

 

The reason why I had dropped that idea is that this would be a huge task, and I'm already swamped as it is. So pigtailsboy, if you are into it, go on! And while you're at it, you could create a Wiki page for every mission up to date, listing the contents and naming the main protagonists of the respective story.

If a complete time line is made it might constrict more than help. Past is one thing but a full future would prevent invention. If everyone got a chance to add to it once in a wile to freshen things up though...

 

 

See, the streets on those maps are too neat, too orderly. When I think of the City, I think of places like:

 

post-2023-127444559406_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444560572_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444561869_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444563207_thumb.jpg

post-2023-127444580856_thumb.jpg

 

Narrow, winding, chaotic and irregular. And that's also why it is better left hazy and uncertain, at least "officially".

You're a man after my heart. Everything you posted tweaks my architecture funny bone. None of it fits bridgeport probably but it's so exciting visually and spaciously and in it's feeling that this is where people live and work. But you can see why some small efforts to ground it could influence mission design. Knowing what and where you're working with could result in places like that.

 

As to things looking to clean... it will probably change as frequent mappers grow into the whole thing. I got a different image of bridgeport from the wiki than what I received from the missions so far. One thing that's missing though, regardless of the presence of sewers, is a paved channel through the streets in the poorer areas to funnel refuse through the streets. Rotting animals aside you still need to move the crap along or in no time at all you're slogging through something we normally rarely step in now. I think tears of saint lucia might have done this?

Edited by pigtailsboy
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I doubt there are any fire wagons, even in this industrialized city... a line of bucket men maybe or they might even be so advanced as to have water mains but no one has instituted something like that in missions so far so it's probably a far off idea. As it is the streets are to narrow and winding and narrow to allow for that kind of service.

How about archers armed with water arrows? A legitimate use for the things, explaining why they're manufactured by the inventor's guild without people shutting them down due to their use in thievery.

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Major thoroughfares, landmarks, districts, areas of political influence, topography. Landmarks like the greater church (has this one been done yet?), counsel chambers, clock tower (there will probably be lots of these, due to such a large city as well as it being industrial midevil europe), certain stately homes. There will probably be a long list of ideas as for landmarks. districts and where they are and what they're famed for seems VITAL to me.

 

"Chalice of Kings" by Fidcal and at least one other FM had the background picture of a street with several houses. You see it though one of the windows, iirc. So, if someone would build those landmarks mentioned above, they could be screen-shot as a backgound texture and used in newer FMs. This way, the FM's size won't increase, and the feeling of immersion ("Hey, so there is that Church!", and "That's the tower from that FM I played last month!") would be greatly increased.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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From what I've read so far I'm not certain bridgeport is designed. As old as it is it's grown from what it was.

 

The wiki is quite clear on that point:

Vast and sprawling, most who live there go their whole lives without seeing just how expansive it is. Having been built and rebuilt over the centuries, much of the city is a confusing maze of narrow streets and alleyways.

 

City districts were built and rebuilt over time (primarily due to fires), and new buildings were often built directly over top of the old. The older districts atop the hill have a city beneath the city. Subterranean crypts and forgotten passages abound, and are used as secret highways or meeting places for societies of Necromancers and thieves.

 

How about archers armed with water arrows? A legitimate use for the things, explaining why they're manufactured by the inventor's guild without people shutting them down due to their use in thievery.

 

I do hope people are reading the wiki; there's a whole page about arrows:

With the number of furnaces and steam engines in the city, fire is always a serious danger. Combined with the fear that an enemy nation might one day steal the recipe to liquid fire, the Inventors Guild was charged with developing something that could extinguish that fire. Their alchemists worked for many years, and the result of their efforts was a highly potent form of liquid. Capable of putting out liquid fire, it takes only a tiny amount to extinguish a normal flame.

 

Attached to arrows for easy delivery, they quickly became the tool of choice for fire brigades, who could use them to put out fires on roofs and other hard to reach locations. Most nobles keep a regular supply in case fire were ever to get out of control in their homes.

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I do hope people are reading the wiki; there's a whole page about arrows:

Was that there all along? Glad it's part of the lore, anyway. Of the pages on the wiki that I've read, "arrows" was not one that immediately came to mind as one that would need reading, since the use of them is pretty self-explanatory.

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Just watch out for Bulgarian taffers

 

ZING!

Well played. Just for the record, Bulgaria is actually a really pleasant place, though.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Similar isn't it? Took some clues from the map did some scouting. This spot seems to match some of the criteria except for the sea walled/flooded area to the east. It's the Italian coast close the the country of Slovenija. Size of the area is wrong and there isn't a city there but hey whatever.

bridgeport1.png

Map_empire.jpg

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