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You can make your own normalmap and an ao texture, but then use existing textures for the diffuse. That way you'd only need 2 new textures, and could have a dozen or so skins.

That is exactly what I need, thank!

 

About the "one uv sheet" I don't know wha you mean by this.

Here's a picture:

multi-sheet.jpg

By keeping all brackets on one single texture (1024*512 or 512* 256) I think we would reduce the number of drawcall needed as every bracket uses the same texture. I'm not sure about this at all though so it is mostly just a guess, but this is how I think they do it in most other engines. It might be a little extreme to keep all textures on one sheet but to avoid wasting the space I should at least place two brackets per texture.

 

No, I thought the red one is basically a "flat plane" consisting of only 10..50 tris basically just following the shape close enough. It would not provide self-shadow, but it would hopefully cast a close-enough shadow on the wall.

You're right, out of pure habit I assumed that all new segments would take at least 8 triangles (as they would if it would've had any depth).

 

No problem, but as I said, it might look odd if you switch from full-to-low in one go, limiting the switch to far-away distances only. So it might not prove to be useful in a hallway, because only furthest away two models could switch, and the rest is still rendered at fill detail.

Yeah, but it is quite a bit of work already just to model, unwrap and texture only one version of all of these let alone three so I think we should probably test it with just two version first and see how that looks and if it doesn't work I can do more.

 

So basically: Make at least two models: one with the full tris and a full (but probably still a bit simpler than the initial model) shadow mesh. And one with a simpler shadow mesh and a simpler render mesh.

That's what I was planning so I'll try to get that going.

 

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it made perfect sense!

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Don't worry too much about polys. You should in fact make a low-poly with about 1000 tris as you had done, but also add a "medium" poly version with say 2000 polys. This is a very good showcase object

Wow. Nice! Looks like something a gentleman duelist noble would have in his trophy room.   With a golden handle and silver blade it would be a nice ornamental loot object. A mapper could easily use b

Thanks! Then I know what to do next.   Aye, shiver me timbers.   The highpoly for the bellows (pair of bellows?) is finished. It turned out pretty good: I'm not really satisfied with the leather but

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Following the red on that one bracket would be at least 25 polys/per side, but that was just a quick trace, you'd probably need to spend a few more to make it look nice. And yeah, no depth but I think it would be fine, would still cast a fair representation of the shape.

 

And the light would most likely be from below and at enough angle that depth wouldn't matter.

 

======

Having one texture sheet won't make a difference on draw calls, as Doom3 doesn't combine models based on materials. Tel's Seed system could be used in a mission to combine them though, and that would reduce draw calls. (but would also render ones out of view if any were in view...)

 

But one tex would mean fewer texture loads IF a player used more than one style in an area (vis portalled area), and it's fewer textures in the mod.

=======

a good way to save tris that would work good for these models...

 

Each side of the bracket can be a simple plane, 2 tris. Then you only have to model the depth, you just have to be careful when aligning the sides.

post-1981-129641044642_thumb.jpg

 

I modeled the gear, did a tight planar map from the side, baked the normals. Then deleted all the side faces, replaced with 2 tris that line up exactly with the uv map and applied the alpha mapped normal to it.

Probably the easiest way to get the uv's lined up perfect is to make the 2 tris, combine them to model, uv it all at once. detach the 2 tris, bake the normal for the bracket. Then delete bracket sides and put the map on the 2 tris.

 

I probably shaved a couple hundred tris off the gears (per side), the alpha lines up nicely and you really can't tell in game (but the gears need offset by a tiny bit so the points of planes don't z fight with touching gears).

And the plane is normal mapped so it doesn't look flat.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Here's a picture:

multi-sheet.jpg

By keeping all brackets on one single texture (1024*512 or 512* 256) I think we would reduce the number of drawcall needed as every bracket uses the same texture. I'm not sure about this at all though so it is mostly just a guess, but this is how I think they do it in most other engines. It might be a little extreme to keep all textures on one sheet but to avoid wasting the space I should at least place two brackets per texture.

 

Ah, you mean a "texture atlas":

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Creating_LOD_Models#Texture_atlas

 

That wouldn't really help here because:

 

* each model still gets their won drawcall in idTech4 (texture atlast only helps if you create it from 2 or more etextures for the same model) (The exception is if you use the seed system to combine entities, but that is not always appropriat and not before v1.04 anyway)

* you could then not reuse our other textures, so you'd need to do a new texture for each material we want and all of them would also need the "complicated" texture atlas.

 

I think it is better to use a plan texture from out set and uv-wrap to this.

 

Yeah, but it is quite a bit of work already just to model, unwrap and texture only one version of all of these let alone three so I think we should probably test it with just two version first and see how that looks and if it doesn't work I can do more.

 

Sure, good plan. I am just saying that my experience tells me you'll need to do more than two, anyway :) But better two than none.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Following the red on that one bracket would be at least 25 polys/per side, but that was just a quick trace, you'd probably need to spend a few more to make it look nice. And yeah, no depth but I think it would be fine, would still cast a fair representation of the shape.

 

And the light would most likely be from below and at enough angle that depth wouldn't matter.

 

Hm, is it possible to have an alpha-test in the shadowcast? Then you'd only need 2 tris and "paint" the shadow shape on it.

 

a good way to save tris that would work good for these models...

 

Each side of the bracket can be a simple plane, 2 tris. Then you only have to model the depth, you just have to be careful when aligning the sides.

post-1981-129641044642_thumb.jpg

 

I modeled the gear, did a tight planar map from the side, baked the normals. Then deleted all the side faces, replaced with 2 tris that line up exactly with the uv map and applied the alpha mapped normal to it.

Probably the easiest way to get the uv's lined up perfect is to make the 2 tris, combine them to model, uv it all at once. detach the 2 tris, bake the normal for the bracket. Then delete bracket sides and put the map on the 2 tris.

 

I probably shaved a couple hundred tris off the gears (per side), the alpha lines up nicely and you really can't tell in game (but the gears need offset by a tiny bit so the points of planes don't z fight with touching gears).

And the plane is normal mapped so it doesn't look flat.

 

Wow, could you please add this to our wiki? That sounds like a powerful technique for this type of models.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Yeah, but it is quite a bit of work already just to model, unwrap and texture only one version of all of these let alone three

 

Yep. I personally don't see the need for multiple versions of models this small. LOD is primarily for objects that can be seen from a significant distance, not interior objects like small shelf brackets. I'd much rather have a modeler create three different models than one model with three different levels of detail.

 

If and when LOD is demonstrated as effective and useful even in interior spaces, we can always revisit our existing models and make lower poly versions.

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Unfortunately I don't think Doom3 allows transparency tracing, would be a great addition with open source rendered though. It really is the best way to do things like this.

Hammer (source) does it, chain link fences come to mind, but it's also baking a lightmap, not real time. I suppose it's very expensive, maybe even more so than tracing the polys.

 

Wow, could you please add this to our wiki? That sounds like a powerful technique for this type of models.

 

mmm, maybe. I hate wiki formatting and I might just need to create a new object to 'track the progress in screens' (or finding a good 3d file, I was learning as I went and when I recently went back to clean up a model it was ugly and I kindof hacked it out).

I'll try and get around to it but no promises at this point.(If I do it I'll have to explain it good so it's worth while)

 

=====

@Nosslak,

 

Someone mentioned self shadowing. It should be fine to make the shadow mesh non-self shadow (is that shadow2 ?) and then have the wood itself be noShadow. If you don't include NoSelfShadows in the wood it would self shadow.

At this point I can't say which would be the best option. maybe the low poly shadow would self shadow the model just fine.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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a good way to save tris that would work good for these models...

 

Each side of the bracket can be a simple plane, 2 tris. Then you only have to model the depth, you just have to be careful when aligning the sides.

post-1981-129641044642_thumb.jpg

 

I modeled the gear, did a tight planar map from the side, baked the normals. Then deleted all the side faces, replaced with 2 tris that line up exactly with the uv map and applied the alpha mapped normal to it.

Probably the easiest way to get the uv's lined up perfect is to make the 2 tris, combine them to model, uv it all at once. detach the 2 tris, bake the normal for the bracket. Then delete bracket sides and put the map on the 2 tris.

 

I probably shaved a couple hundred tris off the gears (per side), the alpha lines up nicely and you really can't tell in game (but the gears need offset by a tiny bit so the points of planes don't z fight with touching gears).

And the plane is normal mapped so it doesn't look flat.

I didn't really think about that but that is indeed a good method for flat and round parts like these. Only thing I would change is that it sounds like you modeled the sides regularly, projected the lowpoly model unto the planes and then just removed those side faces. If I would use that method I would take advantage of the fact that you can make it as detailed as the textures resolution permits and instead project the highpoly sides to it. This will make it look a little bit more faked if you examine it closely but it will make it look even rounder too. I will also save a lot of triangles (150 triangles on my most highpoly, so I almost halved the polycount) so I could make the lowpoly follow the highpoly closer and I think it's look great.

 

Ah, you mean a "texture atlas":

 

http://modetwo.net/d...s#Texture_atlas

The terms are interchangeable. The term varies from place to place but it still means the same. I also think I read somewhere that id call them atlases but most other people just say texture sheet.

 

That wouldn't really help here because:

 

* each model still gets their won drawcall in idTech4 (texture atlast only helps if you create it from 2 or more etextures for the same model) (The exception is if you use the seed system to combine entities, but that is not always appropriat and not before v1.04 anyway)

* you could then not reuse our other textures, so you'd need to do a new texture for each material we want and all of them would also need the "complicated" texture atlas.

 

I think it is better to use a plan texture from out set and uv-wrap to this.

Having one texture sheet won't make a difference on draw calls, as Doom3 doesn't combine models based on materials. Tel's Seed system could be used in a mission to combine them though, and that would reduce draw calls. (but would also render ones out of view if any were in view...)

Screw it then. I'll just roll with two brackets per texture sheet/atlas (they are triangular so anything else would be a waste of space).

 

Wow, could you please add this to our wiki? That sounds like a powerful technique for this type of models.

It is a pretty powerful technique but it will only work on flat models and it may need extra high-res textures to not make the edges look pixellated.

 

Yep. I personally don't see the need for multiple versions of models this small. LOD is primarily for objects that can be seen from a significant distance, not interior objects like small shelf brackets. I'd much rather have a modeler create three different models than one model with three different levels of detail.

 

If and when LOD is demonstrated as effective and useful even in interior spaces, we can always revisit our existing models and make lower poly versions.

Yeah, I think I concur though I doubt there will be that many modelers that would want to go back and make one or more LOD-versions for their model several months after they're done with it as I have a hard time going back and improving models that I've considered finished.

 

@Nosslak,

 

Someone mentioned self shadowing. It should be fine to make the shadow mesh non-self shadow (is that shadow2 ?) and then have the wood itself be noShadow. If you don't include NoSelfShadows in the wood it would self shadow.

At this point I can't say which would be the best option. maybe the low poly shadow would self shadow the model just fine.

I doubt selfshadowing will work, but I'll try it out anyway when I get that far.

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Yeah, I think I concur though I doubt there will be that many modelers that would want to go back and make one or more LOD-versions for their model several months after they're done with it

 

I can make low poly versions without too much difficulty if it comes to that.

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I did make a fairly high poly to project down. Same thing though, put as much detail as you want on the sides and bake it down to the flat.

 

I think I used 512 tex for each gear (fancy_metal_16t and 32t). With a ddx5 (32 bit tga) it's enough to keep a nice round look and not notice edge pixels. I only put the gear faces on it though (the baked plane), the (don't know what to call the other faces) other faces just used stock materials (I made the gear faces from stock materials too, just combined them, added normals)

The largest gear is probably 2.5 feet in diameter, much larger than those brackets.

 

I think you should be able to put 2 of them on a 512 no prob.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Thanks! I haven't had the pleasure of seeing it in-game myself yet so I can only imagine.

 

Not the best image, but here you go:

 

I took the liberty of making a bunch of additional models from the bits and pieces.

post-9-129644088435_thumb.jpg

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May we also have a "just the skull" model? I know I could use it.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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I can make low poly versions without too much difficulty if it comes to that.

Alright, If I do go with BCs plane with alpha then at least the lowest LOD will be extremely simple to make (just remove the depth faces) so I think I might just as well make those anyway.

 

I did make a fairly high poly to project down. Same thing though, put as much detail as you want on the sides and bake it down to the flat.

Okey, that is what I would've assumed you'd do but it didn't sound like it.

 

I think I used 512 tex for each gear (fancy_metal_16t and 32t). With a ddx5 (32 bit tga) it's enough to keep a nice round look and not notice edge pixels. I only put the gear faces on it though (the baked plane), the (don't know what to call the other faces) other faces just used stock materials (I made the gear faces from stock materials too, just combined them, added normals)

The largest gear is probably 2.5 feet in diameter, much larger than those brackets.

 

I think you should be able to put 2 of them on a 512 no prob.

They are pretty small so I think it might even work with a 256^2 texture but as always I'll create the textures atleast twice as big as they probably need to be so that I'll get some more freedom with it just in case.

 

Not the best image, but here you go:

That looks epic. *Pats his own back*

 

I took the liberty of making a bunch of additional models from the bits and pieces.

Yeah, thanks for separating them as well. I was going to do this myself but as there were no collision- or shadowmesh I just waited with that.

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May we also have a "just the skull" model? I know I could use it.

 

 

Sure, I'll add it to the list.

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Here's some updated goodies:

Bracketslow1.png

The two of them that are textured use the same texture sheet/atlas and consist of 260 respectively 72 triangles. The wood texture is also just a quick placeholder from CGTextures as I couldn't find any good built-in alternative.

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Here's some updated goodies:

Bracketslow1.png

The two of them that are textured use the same texture sheet/atlas and consist of 260 respectively 72 triangles.

 

Looks very fine to me! And with a simple "one-sheet" LOD stage will probably be enough. (in case someone adds them to a outside of a house and the player walks 100m away :)

 

The wood texture is also just a quick placeholder from CGTextures as I couldn't find any good built-in alternative.

 

Yes, we do lack inn good wood textures. Also, some of our most often used (wood) textures definitely lack punch, and or details :-/

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Yes, we do lack inn good wood textures. Also, some of our most often used (wood) textures definitely lack punch, and or details :-/

I've submitted a new batch of textures for Serpentine to review last weekend; while it mostly focuses on stone textures, it has four wooden ones:

post-2023-129671769352_thumb.jpg post-2023-129671770021_thumb.jpg post-2023-12967177057_thumb.jpg post-2023-129671771051_thumb.jpg

If you need more (either specific source images or "we need some more panels"), I can make some, material files included. I've got an account at CGTextures, and thus a generous DL limit and access to high-res images. Also, as long as the source images are tileable or easily made so, it is really a snap to do.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Looks very fine to me! And with a simple "one-sheet" LOD stage will probably be enough. (in case someone adds them to a outside of a house and the player walks 100m away :)

 

Yes, we do lack inn good wood textures. Also, some of our most often used (wood) textures definitely lack punch, and or details :-/

Yeah, the only base-texture I found from the mod that could work was the red cherry one which I think, to be quite fair, looked disgusting.

 

I've submitted a new batch of textures for Serpentine to review last weekend; while it mostly focuses on stone textures, it has four wooden ones:

post-2023-129671769352_thumb.jpg post-2023-129671770021_thumb.jpg post-2023-12967177057_thumb.jpg post-2023-129671771051_thumb.jpg

Looks pretty good, though the second one have way too much baked specularity so I'm not sure how useable that'll be. These won't help me at all with these brackets as I will need a base-texture that is as flat and as possible (i.e no patterns), but thanks anyway.

 

If you need more (either specific source images or "we need some more panels"), I can make some, material files included. I've got an account at CGTextures, and thus a generous DL limit and access to high-res images. Also, as long as the source images are tileable or easily made so, it is really a snap to do.

I think it looks like TDM needs at least two or three more flat board textures. I've also grown a little fond of the texture I found on CGTextures so perhaps you could prep that for inclusion.

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I've submitted a new batch of textures for Serpentine to review last weekend; while it mostly focuses on stone textures, it has four wooden ones

I think I already added that third one, but yours comes in a totally different colortone, so that's fine. I'd really give the diffuse maps of the first two wooden panels some more love though, because they contain very strong specular and also some directional shading. Especially the second panel needs to be tweaked!

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I think it looks like TDM needs at least two or three more flat board textures. I've also grown a little fond of the texture I found on CGTextures so perhaps you could prep that for inclusion.

 

CGTexture's Licence forbids this:

 

http://www.cgtextures.com/content.php?action=license

 

It is NOT permitted to:

- Sell or distribute any of these textures in an unmodified form, or where the derived product you are selling or distributing is a Texture or a collection of Textures. IN OTHER WORDS: Do not sell or distribute any of these textures (modified or not) by itself or in a texture, material, clipart, website theme or scrapbooking pack!

- Bundle the images with software such as paint programs, 3D programs, photo-kiosk software.

- Reselling or redistributing the images at 'print on demand' services (mugs, t-shirts, mouse mats, etc)

- Use the textures in graphic design themes or templates sold to multiple customers on digital market places (this includes templates of websites and business cards).

- Selling or redistributing skins for laptops, phones and other devices, created with images from CGTextures.

- Stockpile images with the goal of making a local copy of all textures on the site.

- Using a special program (spider, leecher) or script to automatically download all Textures on the CGTextures website. Users who try to mass download will be banned from the website automatically.

- Interfere with the security or otherwise abuse, disrupt, place excessive loads on, or attempt to gain unauthorized access to the CGTextures website or any system resources or networks connected to this website.

- Release the Textures or derivative products under Open Source Licences

 

Emphasis by me.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Just fyi, there are tons of texture from cgtextures in TDM... I believe somebody once asked over there, whether we can use the textures in TDM and the answer was quite wishy-washy with a tendency to "yes".

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Just fyi, there are tons of texture from cgtextures in TDM... I believe somebody once asked over there, whether we can use the textures in TDM and the answer was quite wishy-washy with a tendency to "yes".

 

Hm, yeah, now that you write that, I seem to remember this, but not if it was cgtextures. Would be good to get a definite answer on it, tho.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Sorry to hijack the thread, but I figured this would be a good place to get a quick modelling question out there. I decided to redo my chandelier model for the FM I'm making, but I'm still not happy with it. Here's the hi poly I have so far, any suggestions on things I can improve?

post-2313-129698969917_thumb.jpg

Edited by killhour
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Well it would definitely look better with some lights or candles... :P Hehe, I guess you will add them later. But your model could definitely do with some details, so check out some example images at google. Here is a good one I just found. :D

 

 

oazEyr.hans_van_bentem_custommade_chandelier_dick.jpg

 

 

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The metal "spokes" sticking out of the rings are for the candles. Still not sure if I'm going to put them in the model or use the ones already in the editor. Also, I'm not sure if I'm going to add the stings holding the crystals. It would require a ton more polies for very little gain (I'd have to use a different material so they weren't transparent, meaning I can't just paint them on the same cylinders as the crystals). You likely wouldn't see them, anyways.

Edited by killhour
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You really should just start a thread in editors guild area. As this is 'Noss' Models', it already gets derailed enough.

 

But since I'm posting..

 

Just make alpha planes for the strings, would probably be best to add the crystals to that too and just normal map bake from what you have already. I'd just use in game candle entities. You have choices, can place them where you want (some melted down more than others) and the whole light/extinguish thing is working.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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