Textures with issues

[Baddcog]

 

 

I can't tell what's going on here. All these DG bricks share the same or similar bumps.

 

But even in mild light (and worse with no light) the area between bricks looks black. And the normal has a nice bevel on each side, So I can see in a hard light there being a very black anlge on one brick, but the next brick over should have a very bright edge.

 

It's seems like the normal map isn't registering correctly. I tried running a 'normalize Only' filter on it but it didn't change.

 

And the TDM ambient stage is different than what I'm used to, is this that bloom thing?

 

I really like these textures and think they look pretty good, but imo the normals are killing them, when just looking at the normals it seems like the normals should work good.

 

// Author: David Gurrea (bumpmap: SneaksieDave)

textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown

{

stone

 

qer_editorimage textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown_ed

diffusemap textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown

bumpmap textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks02_local

 

{

if ( parm11 > 0 )

blend gl_dst_color, gl_one

map _white

rgb 0.40 * parm11

}

{

if ( parm11 > 0 )

blend add

map textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown

rgb 0.15 * parm11

}

 

// TDM Ambient Method Related

 

 

 

 

 

{

if (global5 == 1)

blend add

map textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown

scale 1, 1

red global2

green global3

blue global4

}

{

if (global5 == 2)

blend add

program ambientEnvironment.vfp

vertexParm 0 1, 1, 1, 1 // UV Scales for Diffuse and Bump

vertexParm 1 1, 1, 1, 1 // (X,Y) UV Scale for specular, Z: ambient reflection scale

vertexParm 2 global2, global3, global4, 1

vertexParm 3 0

fragmentMap 0 cubeMap env/gen1

fragmentMap 1 textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks02_local // Bump

fragmentMap 2 textures/darkmod/stone/brick/rough_big_blocks04_brown // Diffuse

fragmentMap 3 _black // Specular

}

}

 

 

[Serpentine]

Hey, I've actually just revised a bunch of these block textures to bring in better contrast/vibrance... but I didnt actually look at the normal much. That said my changes are still in my big directory of texture changes I need to commit.

 

I really cant see a problem with that image, but I assume I will have to test in game. It could just be that like quite a few of the normal maps they have been strengthened by just increasing the saturation which will result in some quite strange and overly dark edges where the blue channel becomes far too dark.

 

And since I've already been having a look at these textures, I'd be happy to produce some new normals.

 

I only hope that this is something that is related to the lighting and not the diffuse as I have been making AO to multiply into many of the bland diffuses... but if you're saying these areas are already too dark I'm a bit worried

[Baddcog]

Exactly, too dark. In game they really look like they aare traced out in black marker or something.

 

That's a very low light situation, and in other spots where it is ONLY diffuse lighting it looks the same.

 

If it's only ambient then I'd expect to be able to see the bevels on each side of the block, but all I see is a very dark (pretty much black) line.

And you only see the bevels under a bright light.

 

I can see having a pretty sharp but thin dark line to seperate bricks, but I'd still expect to see some bevel. Currently the bevel is basically cancelled out.

 

Looking at that pic again to me it seems like very flat bricks with black mortar in between (there's only a few spots where the blue light hints of any shape)

[Serpentine]

ok, I think I see what you're talking about.

 

The current normal doesn't have a flat part between the bricks, rather it has the meeting of two angled faces, like a "V" where you want a more "U" shaped thing going on (well, the U doesn't have vertical walls... but the bottom bit).

 

Sounding like the same page?

 

If it is what I think, it's pretty easy to fix up without actually changing the normal very drastically using a bilateral filter to remove the sharp point and shallow it out.

[SneaksieDave]

Why is the shot all blurry like that? Is that zoomed in or is something very wrong (I was wondering about an odd doubling or blurring effect in these shots too)?

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I noticed those pics at TTLG were a little weird, just figured test map, multiple bright sources giving off multiple shadows..

 

Not sure why mine is blurry, just a screenshot, but it is a low quality jpg.

-------------------

 

@Serpentine

 

No, I don't mean the split between bricks should be U shaped. It should be V shaped. That's what it looks like looing at it (the normal map).

 

But it DOESN'T look like that in game. Unless under a very bright light source.

 

Other wise it DOES look very flat bottom. Like the bricks have sharp 90 edges and there's black mortar in between.

 

 

And those bricks should deffinately not be mortared, Just giant stones placed together. They should look like they have angled edges. Even in ambient light only, they shouldn't look like above.

 

==========

OK, so I went and got rid of most of the contrast in the blue channel.

 

See now you can see the whole brick, Of course there's not a very strong bevel on it anymore, but it doesn't look 'outlined', it looks like a whole brick.

 

But the bricks with no direct light are almost entirely black now (obviously the blue channel is totally fubared now). But the ones in the light look much better.

 

---------

after reading your first post again and lessinging the contrast on the normals I think that's what the problem must be, the normals are just too much.

 

The diffuse looks fine to me, after that normal change they look much more like they should. I checked again and the diffuse on SVN looks great, here's a pic that indicates how it looks in game with current normal to me.

 

left is diffuse as is, right is how it looks in game (in ambient or minmal lighting)

[SneaksieDave]

Just to note, there are weathered and sharp versions of those stones. I guess the ones in the pic at top are the sharp versions. (maybe doesn't pertain to the point, just saying)

[Baddcog]

Yeah, but even sharp they should have lit edges, even more so probably. But that's not what's happening, they are just getting dark crevices where the light/dark edge should be.

 

----------

Doesn't anybody else see from the thumbnail (don't bring up big version) that it looks like the bricks are outlined with black marker? There's no stone color/texture at all.

[Serpentine]

Ok, since I'm still confused and kinda sleepy. I'll just remake the normals quickly and see if I can sort it out

[Serpentine]

Well, found your problem. This is the heightmap that would correspond with that normal(it has been simplified to remove all the small bumps and things that arnt very interesting to us):

http://syr.taaaki.za.net/tdm/textures/fixing/current.jpg

 

And this it seems is what you are expecting? (just an example don't worry, the gradient of the slope is 45 degrees):

http://syr.taaaki.za.net/tdm/textures/fixing/angled.jpg

 

If this is correct I will remake the normal from the diffuse with a similar style, it'll take an hour or two but should make the blocks look a bit less boring... I might also throw in my reworked diffuses full of glorious fixes (they don't look like they've just been recoloured like the current ones)

[Baddcog]

Yeah, that's it

 

I wasn't necessarily trying to make someone else do it, I just figured it needed done as it looked odd.

 

But thanks!

[Serpentine]

Making some good headway. Wondered for a while how to make a good chisel layer in photoshop but I seem to have finally cracked that. Will post screenshots here in a couple of minutes.

[Serpentine]

Ok, so my new normal is coming along nicely - However our assumptions at the start were mostly incorrect. The largest problem with this is actually the diffuse, the flatness of the colour and low brightness result in the material being too dark ingame, once there is some contrast it improves greatly. The new normal however does remove the uber-heavy normal problem, which means that most areas behind the light actually respond to it

 

Note : Neither the diffuse or normal are near completed. The diffuse has an army camo-pattern going on at 45 degrees and is actually still too dark, the normal does not match the diffuse details or even have any smaller details blended in. This is just a showcase of the general idea.

 

Current Material:

http://syr.taaaki.za.net/tdm/textures/fixing/oldnorm.jpg

Current diffuse, new normal:

http://syr.taaaki.za.net/tdm/textures/fixing/newnorm.jpg

New diffuse, new normal:

http://syr.taaaki.za.net/tdm/textures/fixing/newdiffnewnorm.jpg

(middle mouse to open in a background tab, open them all side by side so that you can flip through, F11 for fullscreen in most browsers helps a bit, I havent adjusted brightness as my screenshots seem bright enough on my CRT and LCD? if not let me know)

 

Feedback etc? Gief!

 

This is the reason I'm building my material parser, I firstly want to generate a test map with all of x type of materials in it. i.e I can generate a new map after adding some materials and then see that they fit into the general brightness and light quality so that they look acceptable in all scenes. At the moment some are too dark/bright and there's a general lack of uniform lighting because of that. Quite a few people have mentioned it on the forums too so I think it's a very good direction for me to put some time into, accepting that it will take ages to sort everything out

 

And the other thing is that I would like to do have a little bit of an academic poke at making something to detect these textures, which I have some ideas about... but that's very long term.

[Baddcog]

It's deffintaly looking better with the new normal imo.

 

The new diffuse looks good too, but different really. Not to say that's bad but I do like the original diffuse.

 

However I don't think it's the diffuse that's doing that. If you look at that yellow diffuse I posted above there is no really dark color in between the bricks, so how could it possibly be making those dark black lines between the bricks when the rest of the texture stays bright?

 

And it's hard to say on the new diffuse/normal combo. Istill feel like they are getting the same dark lines, even right around the torches there is hardly a bevel face showing at all. It's just the front's of the bricks grabbing light.

Maybe you should place another light on one side of the test area, one that's out away from the wall instead of right next to it.

 

 

And are you using a world_ambient in those shots? Looks pretty dark even after I lightened one in PS. If not you should because that's what every maps base light is going to be, without it testing is pointless.

 

Sorry, it's just hard to judge by a single view screenshot with limited lighting.

[Serpentine]

However I don't think it's the diffuse that's doing that. If you look at that yellow diffuse I posted above there is no really dark color in between the bricks, so how could it possibly be making those dark black lines between the bricks when the rest of the texture stays bright?

Bare in mind that I'm using the brown version of the texture, which is the 'worst case' I will get some screenshots with the yellowy diffuse in a bit for you. I cant really see a case for the old diffuse being good outside of the Tels "but that's how I wanted it" Really, it looks like someone ground a bag of Cheetos?(or whatever your local bright orange coloured chips/crisps happen to be) onto it. The yellowy diffuse looks loooads better better and seems to be the one you're interested in.

 

In most cases the extra dark edges are caused as I said by the blue channel being messed with in the normal map. the blue channel should be white with the details being in grey, the darker they are the more distinct they will appear ingame. The blue channel also darkens things when illuminated by ambient light and nothing else, if the blue channel is far too strong it will cause the surface to seemingly interact badly(i.e illogically) from flat illumination which can be seen by looking at the difference in the normal screenshots, look at the horizontal joins right behind the torches in the old version and you'll see they are completely black. While there is still some definition of the shape in the new one (there should always be a hint)

 

Maybe you should place another light on one side of the test area, one that's out away from the wall instead of right next to it.

Good point, I mostly just look for low angle stuff. Farther away will show up what you're looking for much better indeed

 

And are you using a world_ambient in those shots? Looks pretty dark even after I lightened one in PS. If not you should because that's what every maps base light is going to be, without it testing is pointless.

Yes, it's low at a value of 0.05 RGB (lower than any released fm) I have raised it to 0.09 which is more in line with acceptable ambient but still low enough for me to be happy

 

Anyway, round two with the diffuse you're thinking of in a bit!

[Serpentine]

Ok, I'm retarded:

The yellow version shows the problem up like 50x better.

 

Aaaand it's what I thought, the blue channel is just waaaay too strong. Reducing it by 50% seemed to look ok, maybe a bit more would be fine.

 

Try:

• Open the normal map in photoshop (tho I'm sure whatever you use can do levels)
  
• Hide all the channels except for blue
  
• Make sure only the blue channel is selected and then go to image -> adjustments -> levels
  
• Under the grey slider type in 2.3 and apply that.

 

Test it out in game, looks way better my side. However you have to try preserve some of the face detail (i.e don't white it out completely). else the normal look very bland.

 

I'll continue working on my normals sometime, I do think they add a bit more personality and look less like lego blocks with rounded edges

[STiFU]

The new diffuse is great. Just add them both to TDM for diversification. The groundstructure of the new normal is neat too (a lot more vibrant), but as you already pointed out, it's missing out on details. I'd say, just modulate the details of the original normalmap on it by overlaying the highpass filtered original over the new normalmap.

[SneaksieDave]

I would only remind: the "sharp" version of the normal was supposed to indicate new stones, not decrepit, old, weathered, but instead what you'd see inside a new nice manor. So if the intention is to delete it...

 

But beyond that, I'll stay out of it.

[Baddcog]

 

 

Try:

• Open the normal map in photoshop (tho I'm sure whatever you use can do levels)
• Hide all the channels except for blue
• Make sure only the blue channel is selected and then go to image -> adjustments -> levels
• Under the grey slider type in 2.3 and apply that.

 

 

That's basically what I did in that pic up there that I said looked better (although I probably diminished it too much)

[SneaksieDave]

Here's one that just leaped out at me for the first time ever (despite using it before). HDR really brings the problem out. Nonetheless the problem appears to be aberration in the UV map, and not HDR's 'fault'.

 

textures/darkmod/wood/panels/thin_panels_with_trim_dark

in tdm_wood_panels.mtr

 

No HDR:

 

With HDR:

[Serpentine]

Here's one that just leaped out at me for the first time ever (despite using it before). HDR really brings the problem out. Nonetheless the problem appears to be aberration in the UV map, and not HDR's 'fault'.

 

heh wow, that's a good find.

 

I've been working through fixing a lot of the trim textures, most of them are pretty problematic (either really weak normals or loads of external lighting/gloss) so I'll add this to the bunch.

 

Will get back to fixing textures soon as my contrib site is in a decent beta state. Which should be a few more days then I need to commit the fixes I've done so far... why don't I just do that after finishing one ;/

[jdude]

There's some models that have issues due to the HDR as well. Some of our non-extinguishable lights light up way too much with HDR on in an abnormal brightness and color. Post them here or start a new thread?

[Baddcog]

I suppose you could post a screenie, names here.

 

I'm not messing with HDR, guess that could open a new can of worms

The tex look fine without it right?

 

Is it the color of the lights or the glass material?

[Springheel]

There are several HDR threads; anything that looks wrong because of HDR should go there.

[Fidcal]

textures/darkmod/wood/panels/molding_leaves looks really flat now like wood wallpaper as though the bump map isn't working. (it is - I just checked everything.)

 

So I'm just seeing it differently perhaps after playing Thief for a day or so my expectations for TDM are higher or maybe just that I'm now working more with this texture again. I previously did the tudor arch and stairway. Now I'm cloning arches and seeing how flat this texture looks. It might also be because part of it is deep carved and part less deep so it needs a much deeper bumpmap. I dunno. I really liked how this looked now it looks awful.

 

On reflection I really think the reason I now see it this way is because I've been playing Thief for a couple of days and given its limits the textures and lighting throughout When Still look sumptious and this texture looks poor now in my eyes. In Thief you forget there is no bump mapping because of carefully placed soft shadow lights and no player lantern or other moving lights.