My first DarkRadiant-session

[LEGION]

Editors note: "The following post is not only confusing, but wrong and completely needless. Not DarkRadiant, but Windows is to blame (as ever), see here for conclusion.

Since we are a grown-up forum (without police-state-mentality) this Thread is still present as Memorial to show how easy it is to blame the wrong thing."

 

 

GODDAMN BUILDERS HELL! My first impression of DarkRadiant is that it´s still buggy(1.4.0). Sometimes I just can´t create a new brush no matter how often I drag LMB in Orthoview. Also that switching reassigned-keys-bug annoyed me a lot but that wasn´t the worst but after only two rooms from the tutorial, wanted to create the door-frame, it crashed and upon reopening it tells it can´t read the classname of Entity12 and that´s it! Autosave is also corrupt. I only made one backup but that´s very early, could start over again, doesn´t matter.

The crash happened as I tried desperately to move the created door-frame-brushes. They were already made solid into the main brush around the door, so I can´t move them after de-selecting? Is that right?

And that Entity12, I suspect the movable/PlayerItem/spyglass_closed. Also I used cabinets and such with their _old-models.

 

Or do these crashes just happen and corrupting some entity so everything is lost?

 

Anyway, most important lesson of that first session was: ALWAYS COPY SEVERAL BACKUPS EVERY FIVE MINUTES!!!!

 

edit: In the end it wasn´t all that bad, just read on...

Edited October 9, 2010 by LEGION

[New Horizon]

Relax. Stuff like this happens. No software can be bug free on every system. If the steps you took that caused the crash can be reproduced, chances are the fault can be found and fixed in a future version of DR.

 

I don't see why you couldn't open the map file and delete the corrupt entity 12. That's why text based formats are great to work with.

 

Make a copy of your map file, and then open the copy in a text editor. Search for entity 12 and remove it. Then try opening that copy of the map.

[LEGION]

Hey, NewHorizon, I can´t thank you enough for increasing my horizon!!! Really, THANK YOU!!! Yes, it´s really cool to have text-based formats, I can see that now!

 

This was the badguy:

"model" "models/darkmod/furniture/cabinet_set01. lwo"

"skin" "old/desk1_old"

 

Well, not really, some pagan force made him corrupt.

 

I wasn´t really angry at DarkRadiant, after all it was much fun to place the models and I´m eager to learn the skills to create brushes like Bikerdude does...

[SneaksieDave]

I wasn´t really angry at DarkRadiant

And yet the terrible impression from first post and topic remains. I guess that's the way it goes, though: Person accused of [horrible crime] makes front page, but when found not guilty, it's on page 32.

 

If you have found a bug, please do provide detailed steps.

[LEGION]

I added some smilies on the first post, how does it look now? I thought me writing 'Builders Hell' made sure that I wasn´t pissed off, just annoyed...

 

I already made a bug-tracker-entry. It´s confusing, I know, but I don´t understand atm what is going on.

[SneaksieDave]

Well, a person's first impression is a person's first impression; no need to mute it. I just hate to think that it fuels the fire of the non-stop-complaining-type, the willful detractors (of which there seem to be enough), based on the words of someone admittedly new to the software. Meanwhile, the praise of veterans goes unnoticed, buried in a multipage thread or written off as fanboi'ism.

[Baddcog]

.umm, can't tell what the issue is either in this post or tracker. might want to clarrify/

 

in prefreneces theres also a choice for autosave times. 5 min, 10, whatever you like.

 

and no, if you deselect a anything you cannot move it. cause dr doesn't know what you want to move.

 

i believe greebo is cuuerently working on implementing a ' build what I'm thinking button', but it's taking longer than hoped.

[Caseus_fette]

My impression of DarkRadiant is quite the opposite...

 

I have found DR to be more than stable and most of the problems I have encountered were not the fault of DarkRadiant, but rather my computer/memory/enviroment.

 

It is important to remember that this is a powerfull editor, better than any Radiant Editor I have ever used, and far more relaible to boot. You have to keep in mind that leaving Darkmod running in a window while using the DarkRadiant editor will slow everything down considerably on a lot of older computers and also increase the chance of errors. Normally If I have a problem manipulating or creating brushes it is because I have been working a while without saving, but rather just building and (dmap)ing a lot without using the filters in Dark Radiant.

 

My current map/FM which is 3+ months into development, with over 7000 brushes, 3000+ patches and 2000+ entities chugs along just fine without any problems. I suspect that Dark Radiant is not to blame if anyone is having that much trouble just starting out.

[Fidcal]

Yes, on my old PC I am virtually unable to run Dark Radiant and Dark Mod side by side except on tiny maps without crashing. I think I have only 2GB of RAM on that and an old FX5900 so that is probably the factor.

 

Another cause of crashing which I get on both is the camera render mode in preferences. Use texture mode not lighting mode unless you are certain lighting mode won't crash.

 

One other thing I've read about here is some people have problems with aero mode in Windows; there is a fix for that.

[LEGION]

and no, if you deselect a anything you cannot move it. cause dr doesn't know what you want to move.

 

i believe greebo is cuuerently working on implementing a ' build what I'm thinking button', but it's taking longer than hoped.

 

What I meant was: I wasn´t able to select the made doorframe-brushes again!! (with Alt+Shift+LMB)

I created them and wanted to position them later after I created all frames. It only selected the big room-brush, I think because the frames were already built into the brush. They were already made solid around the door. (I still think in UnrealEd-ways so you sometimes may not know what I mean besides my not perfect english...)

 

And that button is soo old-style!! Not long ago I demanded that 'convert_BrainVision_into_DarkRadiant' -cable, but Jdude told me that it needs USB3.0, so we have to wait a little longer, but I can´t wait for that cable, I´m just wondering in what hole I attach this cable, maybe I would need some implant or ...

 

To summarize the bug(s) I had:

After I done sth in a Radiant-popup-window (like the Light-Inspector) some commands like 'drag new brush' wasn´t responding; also the Undo/Redo-shortcuts were switched to default which I switched (Undo->Ctrl+Y; Redo->Ctrl-Z, because on my german keyboard-layout Y is the key next to X...). But after I selected two objects at once (selecting one alone would not help) the Undo/Redo-keys were switched back to what I assigned them without me going into the shortcut-editor!!! Of course the 'drag new brush'-cmd was available again too.

 

Did no one of you ever experienced that? The 'cannot drag new brush'-thing I mean. That thing with the Undo/Redo-keys you can easily test, just switch the keys and watch the console...

note: I´m not using the german-layout that is available and don´t want to. Working with english tutorials on a german-layout would be most confusing, also I like English more than German and I can learn more this way...

 

If it´s only me (again?) what could it be? Nothing else besides FireFox was running, not even DarkMod. I have 3.25 GB RAM. I use a standard USB-keyboard (dell) that is very simple, no extras. Hmm, hey, I could just switch the windows-keyboard-layout into english, than I won´t have to switch the keys anymore. Yeah, it´s working, no switching anymore...

 

And yes, I had the dynamic-light (F3) activated in 3Dview as it crashed. Also I noticed that the light-colour-change I made wasn´t restored after Undo and Redo...

 

Oh well, that´s all not serious, I´m just glad about that text-based format!!!

 

 

Again about my first post: Well, it wasn´t my intention to fuel the fire, I always read it´s easy to learn, and it´s true. All the (few) things I read so far in Fidcals great tutorial I already memorized, though it´s not much, but it´s more fun and I need fewer steps to do sth than in my early UnrealEd days and I will go on after I wrote this post.

The main or even only reason for the annoyance in my first post was the fact that I thought everything is completely gone and that that will happen a lot in the future. Gladly NH came here and told me the easiest possible way to restore my work, so I was happy again. Maybe this should be added at the beginning of the A-Z tut: If sth goes wrong, don´t worry, these are the recovery-steps...

Edited October 9, 2010 by LEGION

[Fidcal]

It's a beginner tutorial so I'm reluctant to keep adding and adding or it will just get bloated and slow people down. The bottom line is to save regularly.

 

Various reasons for not being able to select something. Are you aware that you can keep clicking to select the things below in a cycle? Both in ortho and camera.

[LEGION]

I clicked nearly 15 times repeatedly, that very likely caused the crash?

I understood you right, I hope: clicking repeatedly selects the brush behind/inside the most forward brush, right?

 

I tidied up the tracker-entry.

 

But NH´s text-editing-solution is more "rewarding" than the backup-solution, depending on what time you saved the backup. I still think it should be added at the beginning or just a link to 'ways to recover lost work'-wiki-entry. (to avoid threats like this one)

 

Well what else could be the reason for not selecting a brush? I never had that with models/entities.

 

Just one thing for your A-Z tut:

When it´s about to set the rotate-value for the first door, I first didn´t know where to do that, because you forgot to add that one has to check 'show inherited properties', I found that in the extra-door-tut at which you linked to at the end of that step.

 

I take the opportunity to THANK YOU and all the others that made/making tutorials for the Wiki!!!! I can´t believe how much is in there, it´s overwhelming (in a positive way) to start with DarkRadiant these days.

Hah, if I remember back to my early UnrealEd-days more than ten years ago, I only had the manual from Unreal 1 that was shipped with a little tutorial, for only even one room if I remember correctly.

(Don´t you think I want to raise my status with my UnrealEd-talk, I´m greener than a newbie can be, I wanted to say that...)

Edited October 9, 2010 by LEGION

[LEGION]

I just discovered sth: The shortcut for regional-keyboard-layout-switching was Shift+Alt, so everytime I used Shift+Alt+LMB I switched my keyboard (I had German and English already present, but deactivated the 'Eingabegeibietschemaleiste' so I wasn´t aware).

 

So NO RADIANT-PROBLEM WITH THE KEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It´s just like Caceus-fette said, btw where are your mission-preview shots?

 

Arg, now I have to edit the tracker-entry AGAIN!!

 

I´ll observe Radiant in the next hour, but it seems the drag-bug was also caused by this. FUCKING HELL, I´m so sorry for all this fuss, really. Every complaint is gone in a puff...

Damn, I´m not allowed to delete the tracker-entry, well it´s resolved now, hey, I resolved a DakRadiant-bug, am I a TeamMember now?

 

edit: I changed the first post again.

Edited October 9, 2010 by LEGION

[SneaksieDave]

Eingabegeibietschemaleiste

[Fidcal]

Editing the map in a text editor is only for special cases such as the one described. It doesn't help for general problems like if you have a crash and lose 30 minutes' work.

 

You don't need to show inherited properties to see the rotate spawnarg on a door because it shows all the time. Can you check that because there is something very odd if you don't see it the same. Are you sure you selected atdm:mover_door.

 

Another reason for not being able to select a brush is if it is part of an entity. Trying to select it will select the whole entity. You then need to use TAB to cycle through all the parts of the entity. Alternatively there is a on the top bar in recent versions of DR that let's you directly select components of an entity. If that button is still set then you might have trouble selecting non-entity brushes.

 

No worries, we all struggled somewhat when we started. In the bad old days there were less tutorials and also Dark Mod kept changing too so a door might not work the same one month as the month before.

[Baddcog]

I may have changed my keys, but i just use shift-click for selection.

 

I think the worst thing about keyboard shortcut options is that if anyone changes them it gets hard to tell someone else what to do. But if they continually change their keyboard layout it's even harder

 

-------

probably harder to learn DR knowing unreal too, they are at base very similar but the interface of unreal always kindof stumped me. Yet Dromed didn't (though it was the first I learned). Hammer to DR transition is really easy, they are very similar in many ways, keyboard shortcuts is the biggest difference apart from thief specific stuff (like S&R and objectives) that were really modelled after Dromed/thief 3rd party stuff.

 

So if you know Hammer and Dromed you've probably got the skills down already, if you're used to unreal you probably have to start from scratch.

 

I haven't used too many other editors, but the ones I did are totally unrelated (torchlight editor, morrowind, etc...)

[LEGION]

 

 

I don´t now how it is called in english windows, it´s that button on the taskbar where you can change the layouts. It´s activated by default (WinXP), but I never used it so I deactivated it. Though I never used it, I created an english keyboard-layout, but totally was unaware or forgot about that shortcut that toggles the layout.

 

I worked now a couple of hours in DR and not one complaint. *phew* That 'not drag'-bug was caused to by the layout-change, though I don´t get why holding LMB didn´t worked, but single LMB-click worked. Anyway, it´s history.

 

You don't need to show inherited properties to see the rotate spawnarg on a door because it shows all the time. Can you check that because there is something very odd if you don't see it the same. Are you sure you selected atdm:mover_door.

 

Here is what I see by default, no Rotate:

 

But everything else during the tut so far fits my DR-copy. I´m just after creating the door-way. First I made a big mistake: I overread that I only had to clone one wall and resizing the original. So I had to delete everything until I read that part again. But it was fun to create that doorway again without reading the tut. That´s again that UnrealEd-thing: There you could easily create another brush to create a hole. So making doorways takes a bit more time to create in DR, but the steps are pretty easy. Well, I´m not far, but so far I can tell that I memorized everything so far I learned meaning it´s easy so far.

 

My first tut for DromEd wasn´t that fun. I never got over one room, could never get into DromEd. I guess the difference to UnrealEd was too big, because I was already inside UnrealEd that time. That were the only editors I used so far (besides UndyingEd, but that was just a modified version of UT1ed, mainly the same as UnrealEd1) and that was very long time ago. So yes, it´s a start from scratch. But today was really fun.

 

The most thing I loved today: Moving existing rooms is so easy, and you see it directly in the camera! In UnrealEd you could move made brushes the way you want, but you never saw it in 3D-render-view, you first had to rebuild, like the dmapping, but it was much slower, well, my processor wasn´t that fast in these days too...

 

What I wanted to say is that DR gives me a better feeling of accessibility. Also that model-preview I never had and what not...

 

Oh just one question: I had a leak. Already fixed it, but I could swear that wasn´t me!! Does leaks happen during dmapping? Or is it always the mapper getting lazy. OTOH I got that leak in the doorway-part I had to redo, so it´s likely I wasn´t that precise though I could swear I did it right...

[New Horizon]

Yeah, something definitely wrong if you're not seeing that. I just fired up DR to confirm...and everything is there.

[Baddcog]

you caused the leak. or rather you failed to not cause a leak

 

maps leak by default since there is nothjing to block the void until you place brushes and seal from the void.

 

did you rotate door THEN look at spawnargs? it should be there then, but not right after you make the door.

-----------

 

make sure your grid is high enough to not easily create leaks. I like to stay at least grid 4 (1-8 adjust grid size), default

(adjust in preferences) is 1, so everytime you reopen dr it will be 1. one is very easy to create leaks with (0.5 scale).

I think 5 makes the scale 16 units(good for base walls) 4 makes it 8 units, still good for walls, but better for more precise doorways.

 

you probably used grid one and have a tiny leak between brushes that you have to zoom in real close to see.

 

compile (in game), go to

file>pointfile in dr and it should draw a red line through the hole.

------------

you can make a wall, then make a door sized brush (thicker than wall) center it in wall, brush menu>CGS> subtract (carve) and it will cut that hole out of wall.

 

fine for simple stuff, messy though. I like to make a full wall, place the doorframe (models for this too), cut vertically on each side of door, select only middle brush, drag bottom up to top of doorframe. then all your cuts are vertical.

 

if you use subtract you probably get one vertical cut, then clockwise are brush you get a horizontal across, a little messier.

if you cut with shapes other than a square it can get real messy.

 

IF you cut make sure to use large grid size and grid snap. sticking to the clipper yields better results.

 

----------

you can also right-click>entity>door

 

that'll give you a door of proper size, with handles and all rotate props intact. it's newer than the a-z guide, i've requested Fidcal update...

then select door and type

 

skin

1

 

then you get a matching skins button, each door has many many skins.

----------

Dromed had to be compiled too before you see changes. it's amazing how much time can be saved not having to do that. mainly you just have to do that to check for leaks, play it, and fine tune lighting.(but you don't have to recompile after changing lights, just go in game again.)

[Fidcal]

Strange. I just found that if you drag out a brush and make it a mover door then rotate shows. But if you make a door model (func_static) then convert it then rotate does not show even though it's now the same entity as the other one. I even saved it and reloaded the map.

[stumpy]

mover_door, rotate, its in inherited properties it doesn't show if its not ticked.

 

because it starts out as a func_static, rotate is an inherited property of a func_static, where as a brush doesn't have an inherited property.

Edited October 10, 2010 by stumpy

[Fidcal]

Yes, but long ago I added "editor_setKeyValue rotate" "0 90 0" to atdm:mover_door so it would always show. I had the idea that there are a lot of spawnargs that mappers often tediously change, such as light radii and brightness so it's easier if they are always showing and just modify them (but I never got round to doing many )

 

So anyway, what I don't get is that because of the above, why does it not show with a conversion? What does DR care how the mover door was made? An atdm:mover_door finishes up exactly the same entity with "editor_setKeyValue rotate".

 

Wish I'd saved my test then I could compare them in a text editor. Probably that's all it is. When an entity is first created as a mover door the above editor_setKeyValue rotate is added into the map and saved with the map. When it's converted that step is overlooked. No biggy.

[LEGION]

Thanks for all the tips Baddgog. That subtract-option I´ll use now for doorframes, but why did you say to make the future hole-brush thicker than the wall? I just did it with the exact wall-thickness, hole is there.

 

When rotating the new door, only 'rotation' is added, but not the 'Rotate' spawnarg.

 

Yeah, seeing LightColor-changes instantly saves so much time, also having a color-scheme so easy to pick from, in UnrealEd1 I only could add numbers up to 255, in later versions they finally got that colour-scheme.

 

I´ll go on now and I´m eager to see how you build shapes like cylinders, how the clipper & patches works and terrain building and...

 

Yes, but long ago I added "editor_setKeyValue rotate" "0 90 0" to atdm:mover_door so it would always show.

Hah, Fidcal, that´s exactly what I thought: "Most likely he tweaked that for his own DR and forgot about it and thought it´s there for everyone."

Edited October 10, 2010 by LEGION

[LEGION]

Just a quick question about this:

 

To improve performance on some low-end systems, Dark Mod textures can simulate the main ambient light. This feature pre-calculates how much textures should be illuminated once only instead of continuously during gameplay. Players can select either method so those with faster machines can use the true ambient light which gives better quality.

 

I guess the quality is only affected by dynamic lights, but not by the lantern? Or does the ambient-shadow-'overlay' for the textures look a little worse? I guess not, but I´m wondering how big the 'impact' of that feature is besides this note:

Note: Some special materials have a background texture plus detail that is only visible with a real ambient light, for example, darkmod/stone/sculpted/corpse. The mapper can place normal lights or local ambient light for those surfaces where possible or leave them with their background texture.

If it´s more different, would it make sense to release later low-end-version with 'ambient_world' and a high-end-version without the '_world'-suffix?

 

note: for the most likely next question I´ll create a new thread like 'LEGION´s questions about everything' or sth like that, of course after I done forum-search...

Edited October 10, 2010 by LEGION

[Baddcog]

i barely ever use the carve tool, thought it needed to be wider.

 

becareful with that tool though, it'll cut every brush it touches.(like if it touches the wall and floor)--

 

 

cylinders are just patches. create a brush the size you want cylinder, patch> cylinders(many options), then select that patch and patch>end cap if you want to cap the end.

if you want a pipe select the cylinder and thicken sides (by desired grid units, - is inward) that'll give you an o shaped patch with hole in middle.