Ways to delay 'Escape when objectives' done?

[Fidcal]

I'm putting this in this forum because it's not a technical problem it's a gameplay problem.

 

'Return to where you started' or 'Escape back to the street' is OK because if anyone goes back there earlier then nothing happens but it makes sense. No, the problem is when you have to say, find a new exit. You find it early but it doesn't go anywhere. Makes no sense. So the mapper has to block it invisibly which is immersion breaking and confusing if the player doesn't realize it's the exit to be used in the future.

 

One solution is you need a key or its equivalent which you can't get until you've completed a sequence of objectives. But might be difficult to set up and you may hear cries of "Key Hunt!".

 

Another method is the player progresses linearly through different areas, each one being an objective, so you can't reach the exit until you have gone through them all. A problem there is other objectives like loot. 25 short in the last section? And anyway, that only applies to linear FMs that already work that way.

 

An idea comes to me as I write this. Change the objective to something more indirect, from say "When all else is done, exit by the West Gate" to read "When all else is done, 'do something' so you can then exit by the West Gate." That 'do something' is tricky though depending on the situation. "Wait on the corner until the gate opens" or "Check if the ladder has been lowered. If so, use it to escape."

 

Can anyone think of examples of the above or any better solutions? Perhaps solutions you've seen in Thief.

[Sotha]

I don't understand the problem.

Give the player a map, mark the exit gate and say "when done, exit this way."

 

I find it weird if the mission exit was not known by the player. No real thief would ever embark on a heist or raid where he didn't know how to escape! Of course gates can be closed and things can go awry, but essentially the player needs to know how to exit.

 

It is boring to have all objectives checked out and then blindly try to locate the exit.

[Fidcal]

accidentally deleted!!!!!!

 

 

[EDIT] Sorry I was trying to get a quote then changed my mind then posted my new post in here then deleted - heck I don't know what I put here now.

 

I'll see if I can find it in Opera's undo.

 

OK, here it is...

 

Wow! You've not really thought this through properly. I have a real problem as you'll see when you play this FM. But it's a general problem anyway as we've already seen in at least two TDM missions. It just looks unpolished and is confusing to have an invisibly blocked exit that magically becomes unblocked later.

[Sotha]

Wow! You've not really thought this through properly.

 

If you say so.

 

It just looks unpolished and is confusing to have an invisibly blocked exit that magically becomes unblocked later.

 

Agreed, I would never design such an element. But why must the exit be blocked? Why can't the player just see the open gate leading outside, but will just not go there until all the objectives are completed? The thief came in for a purpose. This is why I don't understand. You make the exit look like a nice exit, but you put a nodraw solid on it so that the player can never really go there. Once the player has completed the objectives and reaches the exit, the mission ends as all the objectives have been satisfied. Like in Transaction, the town gate was always open, but the mission ended only when the player was at the exit and all the objectives were completed.

 

If you really want the player to hunt the exit, you could even have an audible clue for the player. Maybe you get the player character voice actor to recite something like "Hey! An exit, I'd better remember this and exit through here once I am done." Or if you don't want to see the trouble of contacting a voice actor, you could have separately the objectives

• Find the exit
• Once everything is done, exit.

And when the player finds the exit, mark that objective as completed.

[Bikerdude]

Funny you mention this as I have a similar issue with my contest FM, as the start and exit areas are in the same location. Ive always built my missions to mimic thief, locatioons where the start/exit work without breaking immersion are like my first map (nb. an inside location) but in my latest map its outside so the player has to putup with the fact they cant leave that area.

 

But a solution that I have though of before that I have seen in some T2 missions is for some testing to popup on-screen, "you cant leave yet" and then maybe if your feeling fancy a teleport that takes the player back to the start location. In fact the pop-up text is a spiffy idea, I can see how the text is done looking at the start map, but then I need to figure out how to trigger the text on and then off. So I'm guessing a multi touch trigger..?

[Sotha]

In fact the pop-up text is a spiffy idea, I can see how the text is done looking at the start map, but then I need to figure out how to trigger the text on and then off. So I'm guessing a multi touch trigger..?

 

With a popup message there is the question: is the info that important that you want to break the player's immersion by throwing a message before his eyes?

What if the player is busy swordfighting some AI's and happens to retreat to the popup area? He fights blinded by a message?

 

Not related to anything I want to give an example of really poor design. This was one of the most maddening things in Baldur's Gate:

[Bikerdude]

In my case I think it would work, if I can get it working I will see what my beta testers think..

 

maybe a different bit of text each time, to add a bit of humor into the mix..

[Fidcal]

@Biker: I can get it working for you and I'll post something in a few minutes - although I agree with Sotha on that one - it's kind of immersion breaking or at least, not very TDM-like. It's like the voice of God speaking to the player from somewhere. But I have no strong objection to it but would try to avoid it myself except as a last resort.

 

Sorry Sotha but apart from the above we are on such a different wavelength here I don't see that we can meet on this one.

 

Is there anyone else that can help?

[Fidcal]

Yeah Biker, what you need is an atdm:gui_message - it's under triggers.

 

Probably trigger it from a trigger_facing so the player is facing the right way. Probably also need to teleport it away when no needed. To do that you need to make another invisible optional objective that uses the same enabling objectives as the exit one. Then trigger the teleport from that objective by putting it in the Completion Target box. Mmmm... that objective also needs completing. Make it another loot objective with a tiny amount so it's bound to complete but it won't show. In fact it won't complete until it is enabled.

 

Hope you follow that!

[Bikerdude]

Ah cool, I will have a play with that. I already had a sign entity with hide distance working so when the player got close enough it woould appear in front of them..

 

But I have another idea! you know the sound the player makes when they cant drop a body, how about rigging a triggered speaker to do the same thing. Or a hurt trigger with a very low value. Or another idea is a a triggered teleport, dumps the player back at the start location.. - don't know how immersion breaking that is though..

[Springheel]

One possibility is to block the exit with something believable, like gate. Player won't think much about it. But then the objective can say, "Climb over the north gate to escape" or whatever. The player can't actually climb the gate, but just getting to it ends the mission.

 

It's harder if you actually want the player to find a clever exit, and don't want to tell them specifically where it is.

 

Another possibility to add to what you mentioned is an AI who opens a door or gate after the last objective, giving access to the new area. Or, instead of a keyhunt, a different tool could be needed, like a ladder or rope arrow. Or blocking the area with AI the player just can't get past, who then move off after the last objective. But I think you're stuck with some kind of "block them until the end" method.

[Bikerdude]

ah but what if the EscZone location is an open area...? how do you tell the player not to go there without just blocking them with clip or teleport..?

[Fidcal]

That is the problem. The situation is this:

 

There is a gate (or the equivalent of a gate. ) At the end of the mission the player goes beyond it. I can't tell you what is there except it is short and Mission Complete comes up quickly so the player does not see beyond the first small area. In fact in my case it is more complicated than that but that's a spoiler. If however, the player could get in there early he would see what makes no sense. Furthermore it is 'impossible' in this case to change it.

 

So the player must not be allowed to exit until all other objectives are completed. Blocking it with player clip is a clumsy last resort. I use that when I can see no other solution. A variation on that is the exit only becomes frobable at the end but that again can be confusing and odd.

 

The player MUST go through my gate. There is a reason. So I can't use the just go to the gate area solution.

 

Possible solutions:

 

• 
   
  
• Lock the gate and make the key inaccessible until all other objectives are done. By 'key' I mean any device that opens the way. As Springheel says, a ladder or rope or crowbar whatever.
  
• A variation on the above is needing to get a device (key, rope) to get to the gate area. It's the same problem but has the advantage that if the gate is difficult to reach they are not disappointed because they can't get to it early.
  
• Another variation on the above two is a 3rd party action either gives access to the gate or unlocks it at the appropriate time as in Alchemist (that's not a spoiler because it's in the briefing and objectives from the start.)
  

 

I could use any of the above but none would be ideal in this map and mostly rather strange and contrived. The only one that might work is the accomplice method. Someone tells the player in the briefing or in a conv near the start that he'll try to a ladder/rope/key/crowbar and meet me at x or he will leave it at y. Naturally he/it won't be there until all objectives are done. This can be explained away by circumstances. He had trouble finding a crowbar whatever. This is likely the one I will explore more.

[Bikerdude]

well I have implemented a hidden text pop-up and a teleport with a humorous twist. But I think I will add some info to the briefing aswell.

[jaxa]

Gated area that you frob or pass through. Label it "Exit" or "Escape" (is that possible? i've been playing too much Oblivion). Unlocks automatically once mandatory objectives are finished (no magic key). Or work a key / escape route into the plot and design of the mission. Might not be where you started out of necessity. Like Thief 2's "Ambush": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8rjzj_UsRk

[Fidcal]

All of those already covered. It's making it believable and natural and non-frustrating etc. in the story that is the problem.

[fllood]

Backtracking most of the time isn't much fun. Therefore I am really thankful for every mapper who choose a different exit location as the "leave where you came from".

 

With a popup message there is the question: is the info that important that you want to break the player's immersion by throwing a message before his eyes?

Yes. I think it could be that important.

 

For example after all taffing done in RttC I didn't know where I was supposed to leave even I've already found the exit long before completed all objectives. A subtle message with a players thought "I have some thing to do before leaving town" would have helped. And would have less broke immersion but wandering not knowing where to leave even I already been there without knowing

 

What if the player is busy swordfighting some AI's and happens to retreat to the popup area? He fights blinded by a message?

An atdm:gui_message gui without background image doesn't block sight much .

 

... Indeed I try to use messages for displaying thoughts of the protagonist similar like voice overs in Thief OM's, NHAT or 1940's hard boiled Film Noir movies. Not everyone might welcome such kind of elements. But to me "player thoughts" can add A LOT to identification!

 

Just wish mappers could position message gui's relative on screen. for example with an arg like 'bottom middle', 'middle middle', 'top left', et cetera - probably just didn't found it or have to learn to make my own gui?

Edit: found the args, changing the rect values in windowDef myMessage in the gui file do the trick

Edited May 24, 2011 by fllood

[stumpy]

you can put message where ever you want and it need not have a solid background, so if you were fighting then the text wouldn't get in the way

[Bikerdude]

Just wish mappers could position message gui's relative on screen. for example with an arg like 'bottom middle', 'middle middle', 'top left', et cetera - probably just didn't found it or have to learn to make my own gui?

you can put message where ever you want and it need not have a solid background, so if you were fighting then the text wouldn't get in the way

 

I tried that, but parts of the text became invisible when the skybox was viewable behind the text, some weird alpha issue I'm guessing..

[Springheel]

What about a voice-over?

 

"Hmm, this would be a good way to get out once I'm done..." or something to that effect.

[fllood]

What about a voice-over?

"Hmm, this would be a good way to get out once I'm done..." or something to that effect.

This would be of course best but such only work when having a common protagonist like in Thief. In TDM mappers have very different player characters in their FM's. So we would have to stick to one guy doing all the voice acting for very different alter egos for upcoming FMs having voice overs. And even possibly end in a mismatch of voices for the same player character having some common stuff in TDM like "this would be a good way to get out once I'm done" and FM specific custom lines probably done from a different voice actor...

 

That is one of the reasons I'm more tempted to go for text messages regarding player thoughts.

Edited May 24, 2011 by fllood

[Bikerdude]

yeah, I did consider that, I suppose its less obtrusive and atmosphere breaking as well.

[Fidcal]

A player voice over is one general solution for identifying an exit though as fllood indicates it needs a familiar voice like Garrett. In my case I think I can make clear the nature of the exit so there will be little doubt when the player finds it.

 

To stop him going through it too early I'm thinking possibly a detachable lever or safety bar that a character will provide at the right time.

 

I think this will be a memorable ending when it's done.