Arrow Sounds

[Springheel]

And I am pretty sure the original EULA does not allow you to create deritave works from the game data (e.g. sounds or textures) and then use them.

 

Well, then you'll be ripping half the characters out too, I assume, and our candles, and any number of other things we've created by modifying D3 assets. Once you've dealt with them we can worry about the sounds.

[lost_soul]

"Why do we go all to the extreme "bullshit" of not using the word "Garett", but then just take an original file from D3 and mix it up and then redistribute? I cannot imagine that the latter is okay, while the first isn't."

 

That's a strange situation. Most games that allow modding are bound to have their resources edited and re-used by fans with the particular game. For example, you make a mod where the textures are bloodied up while the player revisits part of the facility during a zombie invasion.

 

Now the question comes in when the original developer releases the source code. Should you remake your zombie invasion mod from scratch, remaking the above textures/levels if you want to make it stand-alone? Most developers never share code with the public, so something like this isn't usually an issue.

[demagogue]

Everybody chill out about the D3 sounds. TDM is still bundled with D3, and if/when somebody ever gets around to making a standalone version, it's going to be a galactic task and these are a few water drops in the ocean not worth freaking out about now. It means we get new sounds for 1.8 and not much later. Besides, we've gone 7 versions without those sounds so they'd probably be trival to strip out without anyone noticing much anyway; and if somebody does get around to making quality original ones to replace them, all the better.

[Springheel]

(For the record, we use far fewer D3 impact sounds now than we did before I started this process, so if anything, we're further ahead.)

 

One thing to avoid is re-implementing the same thing over again if it is already good enough.

 

Yes, I heartily agree with you. I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change.

[RPGista]

I think I was the one that brought that up. I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. An AI would have to be standing right on top of you to hear lockpicking, so it's not likely to ever have a noticable effect--if they're that close, you're already at risk of being bumped into.

 

Opening doors, on the other hand, probably should make a very small sound to AI. I've done some experiments with that, but there are still some technical hurdles to overcome.

 

Indeed, I think you are the one who actually suggested it, but the discussion didnt catch on I believe (or maybe I missed it). On another post I saw this issue being discussed again and there were talks that lockpicking would in fact have noise associated with it, but it was also explained that the confusion was that a lot of people tend to feel that the sounds they are hearing are on the same level as what the AI is hearing, which isnt close to the truth (they are exagerated for gameplay reasons), so they would be there but very faint, as you say. One COULD make the case for a louder sound whenever you "fail" a try (not counting automatic lockpicking, of course), this way lockpicking close to AI (passing or nearby) would get more exciting, as you cant make many mistakes or will attract a look or attention. This would also only matter if you decide to do it right in front of someone, so is more like a subtle thing I guess, a bit more challenge in specific situations.

 

And yes, I would also vote for a bit of sound when opening doors. My point is not to degrade the character's current "proficiency level" (turning him into a clumsy guy who cant do anything quietly) - just to maintain common sense, so opening a door right next to someone is bound to make SOME noise (to anyone standing like a meter or so from you), so you better just wait for the guard to carry on patroling instead of risking it, etc.

 

By the way, I also applaud your sound overhaul Springheel, I for one welcome any new material to the mod that we can all use and enjoy right now, placeholder or not (PLEASE reconsider adding those new AI heads too!), instead of having to wait who knows how long for a potential remake, new contributors that might not appear so soon, etc. Just as a player here.

[Springheel]

By the way, I also applaud your sound overhaul Springheel, I for one welcome any new material to the mod that we can all use and enjoy right now, placeholder or not

 

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment. Praise and personal satisfaction are really all I get out of this, and sometimes the latter just barely covers it.

[GameDevGoro]

One COULD make the case for a louder sound whenever you "fail" a try (not counting automatic lockpicking, of course), this way lockpicking close to AI (passing or nearby) would get more exciting, as you cant make many mistakes or will attract a look or attention. ...

 

Yeah, but wouldn't that create pretty annoying situations where you'd pick the lock to a door, have it swing open only to find a guard looking straight at you because he was alarmed by the fiddling of the lock?

I think that would be a pretty big WTH factor for people who don't exactly know why that happens?

[Tels]

Everybody chill out about the D3 sounds. TDM is still bundled with D3, and if/when somebody ever gets around to making a standalone version, it's going to be a galactic task

 

No it isn't a galactic task! Stop spreading such nonsense. The only problematic things are the animations for the zombies and skeletons. Everything else is a piece of cake - a couple ofsounds, a handful of textures, and thats it.

 

and these are a few water drops in the ocean not worth freaking out about now. It means we get new sounds for 1.8 and not much later. Besides, we've gone 7 versions without those sounds so they'd probably be trival to strip out without anyone noticing much anyway; and if somebody does get around to making quality original ones to replace them, all the better.

 

The problem isn't the straight doom sounds we use - because we do not ship them with TDM (we only reference them). That has two implications:

 

* we do not infringe copyright - we merely ship a textfile which says "use this sound from D3"

* it is easily identified and removed from the mod (find the reference, add own sound and replace reference). A script can even automatically identify these sounds

 

Compare that with the newly added "d3-based" sounds by Springheel:

 

* we infringe on id's copyright, because we ship a file that is based on their IP (even if you don't want this to be true, and think it is no big deal, people have been C&D lettered for less)

* we can no longer find these sounds easily, because which of the 10 dozend files Springheel added are the problematic ones?

 

So this is abig deal. I expected you as a laywer to know the difference.

 

(And the "oh so we get shiny new sounds for v1.08" is no excuse. If that was a valid legal defence, I'd download a movie tonight, because I can't wait to buy it tomorrow in the store *sigh*)

[Tels]

Well, then you'll be ripping half the characters out too, I assume, and our candles, and any number of other things we've created by modifying D3 assets. Once you've dealt with them we can worry about the sounds.

 

Actually, we should do this. And for the record, I didn't know candles are based on d3 assets.

 

As for the characters, I wrote below that it is a very different thing when we simply "reference" D3 assets, and when we take their files as base, modiy them and then redistribute them. I am pretty sure the D3 license does not allow this.

 

(And btw, this is a public thread. Google indexed it already.)

[RPGista]

Perhaps there has been some overreaction to this - every MOD there ever was is "illegal" no matter how you look at it, modding is itself meddling with a game without any permission from the copyright holders; it's in fact encouraged nowadays by pretty much all companies because it prolongs the games' life cycle and maintains it's public appeal, and because the communities are almost every time taking advantage of that material to express creativity, not to harm the companies interests. Oblivion has a very popular mod that is pretty much entirely about taking the game's files and improving on them, be it sounds, textures, statistics, in game mechanics, AI, etc., everything "tweaked", probably very little created from "scratch" in proportion, I would say, and it's one of the most downloaded and distributed in that community (OOO). I cant think of a case where modding was considered a problem for any game, except when the guys were out to scam people for money with it (that is obviously crossing the line).

Edited January 15, 2012 by RPGista

[SeriousToni]

The lawyers will care.

 

Oh c'mon! As if iDsoftware's gonna playtest the Mod after release and findout that some doom sounds mixed over with other self made sounds so that they can sue all of you for millions of dollars. As long as you're not gonna make money with it I think even the taken animations are okay. You maybe should not use the original monsters with their sounds, but I guess that's not gonna happen, so stay cool

 

it's in fact encouraged nowadays by pretty much all companies because it prolongs the games' life cycle and maintains it's public appea

 

Right.

Edited January 15, 2012 by SeriousToni

[OrbWeaver]

every MOD there ever was is "illegal" no matter how you look at it, modding is itself meddling with a game without any permission from the copyright holders;

 

No it isn't. The Doom 3 SDK was released by id software specifically to allow modding. As long as you adhere to the terms of the SDK licence there is nothing illegal about it whatsoever.

[RPGista]

Even better then!

[Springheel]

No it isn't a galactic task! Stop spreading such nonsense. The only problematic things are the animations for the zombies and skeletons. Everything else is a piece of cake - a couple ofsounds, a handful of textures, and thats it.

 

Tels, have you been paying attention at all to the dozens of other threads where I've listed all the things we would have to replace to be D3 free? The last time I went into detail was about a month ago. It's not just "animations for zombies and skeletons".

 

And for the record, I didn't know candles are based on d3 assets.

 

 

Then maybe you should get more informed before you accuse people of spreading "nonsense".

 

As for the characters, I wrote below that it is a very different thing when we simply "reference" D3 assets, and when we take their files as base, modiy them and then redistribute them.

 

That's EXCACTLY what a number of our characters do. Adding a beard to a D3 head requires altering the texture and redistributing it. Using the imp body for the werebeast requires altering the mesh and redistributing it. If that's a problem then we're a loooong way down that road already.

[nbohr1more]

I find it odd that Hip-Hop and Techno musicians are given fair usage license to sample fairly large loops yet in the video-game industry very small samples are guarded like the crown jewels. Seems like the copyright laws bend to the will of the industries that serve their respective content rather than respect any sort of universal and consistant logic... Isn't it nice that a foley artist has more emminent domain over his works than say... Jimi Hendrix? I guess Jimi was too poorly skilled to gain sonic mastery at dropping stones in buckets of water and walking on bubble-wrap so he decided instead to pickup the guitar instead...

Edited January 15, 2012 by nbohr1more

[OrbWeaver]

I find it odd that Hip-Hop and Techno musicians are given fair usage license to sample fairly large loops

 

In general they're not; artists (or their record company) have to get clearance for any samples used on a commercial release. I believe there are dedicated rights-clearance organisations to make this process easier, although I'm sure it is expensive. It's certainly not a free-for-all, except on bootleg remixes and the like which cannot be released commercially.

 

Seems like the copyright laws bend to the will of the industries that serve their respective content rather than respect any sort of universal and consistant logic...

 

Welcome to human society. The rich and the powerful serve no-one but themselves.

[jay pettitt]

I find it odd that Hip-Hop and Techno musicians are given fair usage

They're not.

 

Being in the position of wanting to use someone else's whatevers is the worst place to try and read or understand copyright from. You end up wondering if perhaps I can get away with x or y, but it doesn't work like that.

 

Copyright legislation is about protecting original creative works from being copied - not about allowing copying.

 

Fair use and the other wiggle clauses are intended to provide checks and balances to prevent the owners of copyrighted material from abusing the rights over their work, not to allow hip hop musicians and video game makers to get free samples.

 

Happily though, technology is increasingly accessible - so it really shouldn't be beyond anyone to come up with their own original and or properly licensed sound recordings.

Edited January 15, 2012 by jay pettitt