Alchemy to alter arrow properties?

[wesp5]

10 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

For example, say it's broadheads and a player has 10 broadheads in their inventory.  Does that mean they will be able to create 10 light arrows?

In the version that I just tested, yes. And it will indeed mean that you have 10 dark arrows too, to darken any lighted area which makes it really overpowered.

[snatcher]

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

Okay.  I'm just wondering how it's going to work though.

PM sent for you to give it a try if you want.

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

It looks like you are still deciding what arrow type to base the functionality on?

The mechanic can be extended to water arrows or any other type but for this stage it is limited to broad-heads.

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

For example, say it's broadheads and a player has 10 broadheads in their inventory.  Does that mean they will be able to create 10 light arrows?

Yes, you can apply any recipe to any of the 10 arrows. The reagent weakens the arrow though and arrows cannot be retrieved back.

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

Will you need 'reagents' or something in order to craft them?  If so, where does one get those?

Very good questions. Picking up reagents makes perfect sense to me but I cannot reliably add anything to the maps therefore our protagonist is already equipped with some home-brewed recipes. If the mod is well received perhaps a mapper or the developers will explore the idea further and implement reagents the way it should be done.

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

As a mapper I want to understand how this will affect gameplay.  Will it neutralise a carefully crafted electric lighting scene that is meant to be challenging?

My advice is: forget this or any other mod exists. Don't be bothered by it just like you aren't bothered about players using noclip. Stick to the sandbox the core game offers and to your vision. Job done! The rest is out of your control. It may sound disheartening but the nature of mods is to change something that shouldn't be altered or to create something that isn't supposed exist.

I see TDM missions as a playground with few rules, and I am of the opinion that the more abilities and gadgets at our disposal the richer the experience for all kind of play-styles. I personally rarely put torches out with water arrows. It kind of feels wrong to me in TDM, so I opt not to use them even if I have plenty in stock. Different players with different personalities will use different tools and strategies to fulfill their appetite. We all eventually reach a common place (the end) but the experience has been different from player to player. The more play-styles TDM embraces the higher the player-base, I believe.

Back to your question, you can forget about mods, you can recommend a mod to your user-base or you can warn players that a particular mod might ruin the intended experience. What you should not do is to map with a mod in mind or to account for a mod that isn't integrated in your map or mission. That mod has a form today but it can have a different form tomorrow.

Just my opinion.

Cheers!

[Frost_Salamander]

3 hours ago, snatcher said:

PM sent for you to give it a try if you want.

The mechanic can be extended to water arrows or any other type but for this stage it is limited to broad-heads.

Yes, you can apply any recipe to any of the 10 arrows. The reagent weakens the arrow though and arrows cannot be retrieved back.

Very good questions. Picking up reagents makes perfect sense to me but I cannot reliably add anything to the maps therefore our protagonist is already equipped with some home-brewed recipes. If the mod is well received perhaps a mapper or the developers will explore the idea further and implement reagents the way it should be done.

My advice is: forget this or any other mod exists. Don't be bothered by it just like you aren't bothered about players using noclip. Stick to the sandbox the core game offers and to your vision. Job done! The rest is out of your control. It may sound disheartening but the nature of mods is to change something that shouldn't be altered or to create something that isn't supposed exist.

I see TDM missions as a playground with few rules, and I am of the opinion that the more abilities and gadgets at our disposal the richer the experience for all kind of play-styles. I personally rarely put torches out with water arrows. It kind of feels wrong to me in TDM, so I opt not to use them even if I have plenty in stock. Different players with different personalities will use different tools and strategies to fulfill their appetite. We all eventually reach a common place (the end) but the experience has been different from player to player. The more play-styles TDM embraces the higher the player-base, I believe.

Back to your question, you can forget about mods, you can recommend a mod to your user-base or you can warn players that a particular mod might ruin the intended experience. What you should not do is to map with a mod in mind or to account for a mod that isn't integrated in your map or mission. That mod has a form today but it can have a different form tomorrow.

Just my opinion.

Cheers!

okay - that's all fine.  For this particular feature, I think it would be a good one to offer mappers instead of a mod because it seems like it could be suited to a particular map/theme and reagent placement, etc.  But I know what you mean - if nobody bothers including it in their map, etc. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Frost_Salamander

[Frost_Salamander]

I just gave them a quick try.  Pretty neat.

One thing though - if you fire multiple arrows they have a cumulative effect (i.e. the area gets progressively darker or brighter), I guess by creating a new light each time?  This causes the framerate to tank. I suppose as a player you wouldn't really need to do this, but just thought I'd mention it regardless.

Also if there is a concern they are overpowered, maybe consider lowering the time the effect lasts - I didn't time it but it seemed much longer than you'd need to just slip by a guard or whatever.

[snatcher]

16 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

okay - that's all fine.  For this particular feature, I think it would be a good one to offer mappers instead of a mod because it seems like it could be suited to a particular map/theme and reagent placement, etc.  But I know what you mean - if nobody bothers including it in their map, etc. 

Reagents could perhaps be added to the "Buy equipment" screen... Food for thought.

Just to give two examples, @Obsttorte's throwable hook and grabber arrow wonderful initiatives didn't make it into any mission, not even as a curiosity (please correct me if I am wrong). I am late to the party with no time to lose and I will try to prove my points (good or bad, right or wrong) by realizing them as best as I can.

15 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

One thing though - if you fire multiple arrows they have a cumulative effect (i.e. the area gets progressively darker or brighter), I guess by creating a new light each time?  This causes the framerate to tank. I suppose as a player you wouldn't really need to do this, but just thought I'd mention it regardless.

Excellent observations. Thank you very much.

Current issues (or annoyances):

• Effects don't end gracefully (fade out). When the time is up effects disappear in a split second.
• By darkening an area the frob highlighting is many times barely visible.
• Shooting many light or dark arrows at the same spot impacts FPS.

Your judgment is correct: players must learn where their limit is. Shooting two dark arrows to a very lit area is actually a feature.

15 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

Also if there is a concern they are overpowered, maybe consider lowering the time the effect lasts - I didn't time it but it seemed much longer than you'd need to just slip by a guard or whatever.

Thanks! Similar thoughts were raised privately and different configurations are being tested.

The version you have comes with a 60 sec timeout for both the light and dark arrows. The light arrow will initially remain at 60 and I am testing other values for the dark arrow.

Edited January 28, 2023 by snatcher

[snatcher]

After some testing I would say dark arrows do not impact FPS (to an alarming level anyway). Many light arrows however do, even when I try to reduce effects to a minimum. I don't expect players to shoot many light arrows in the same area at the same time (or any light arrow at all to be honest ) and since the effect is temporal I think we are safe.

 

[snatcher]

Currently, the "Darkdust" effect ends abruptly after 45 seconds, and I would like to provide a more graceful end.

Can you think of any way we can make materials to fade out after the initial 35 seconds of activity? It seems "time" could be of help here but I know nothing about this topic, unfortunately

lights/mod_mtr_darkarrow_aura
{
    blendLight
    {
        blend    blend
        forceHighQuality
        map     lights/shadows/shadow_circle_02
        clamp
    }
}

[datiswous]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:03 PM, snatcher said:

Just to give two examples, @Obsttorte's throwable hook and grabber arrow wonderful initiatives didn't make it into any mission

Pretty awesome! Never seen them before.. Maybe not enough people know about them? I think what would be cool at least if a map would be made, like an extension of the training mission, where such tools can be tested in an environment which makes sense. This gives mappers ideas for implementation.

[wesp5]

10 hours ago, datiswous said:

Pretty awesome! Never seen them before,

Me too. But I can imagine why they are not used, because you wouldn't be able to limit where the player can climb! The rope arrows have the advantage that they only work with wood, so the mission creator has control about their usage...

Edited March 6, 2023 by wesp5

[snatcher]

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Bridgeport...

These little things are neat but damned difficult to use. No, too heavy for an arrow. Hmm... I wonder what's inside this little ball... if I...

[wesp5]

LOL!

[datiswous]

23 hours ago, snatcher said:

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Bridgeport...

Is that a flashbomb mounted on an arrow, or is that a giant flashbomb in the distance?

Edited March 20, 2023 by datiswous

[Oktokolo]

On 3/19/2023 at 12:08 PM, snatcher said:

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Bridgeport...

These little things are neat but damned difficult to use. No, too heavy for an arrow. Hmm... I wonder what's inside this little ball... if I...

Honestly, that could make flash bombs usable to a lot of players. The throw mechanic is completely unintuitive and a usability nightmare. But as an arrow it could be actually useful.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, Oktokolo said:

Honestly, that could make flash bombs usable to a lot of players. The throw mechanic is completely unintuitive and a usability nightmare. But as an arrow it could be actually useful.

Why would you use a flash bomb on somebody so far away that you could pull out the bow and fire an arrow at them? To run there and sneak by while they are still blinded?

[snatcher]

Implementing a "Flash arrow" is fairly easy to do now that the "Alchemy" system is in place. We can re-purpose existing functionality and we don't have to alter any core file or anything. I would simply have to remove a flashbomb (and a broadhead for the service) from the inventory for every arrow shot. The question is, should we do it? I'd rather have Flashbombs revisited by the current devs.

In the image above I am just toying with the Alchemy system.

[Oktokolo]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:56 PM, wesp5 said:

Why would you use a flash bomb on somebody so far away that you could pull out the bow and fire an arrow at them? To run there and sneak by while they are still blinded?

Use case: Fire at something in front of an AI without a good path of approach, switch to blackjack run to AI and make it sleep.

[wesp5]

39 minutes ago, Oktokolo said:

Use case: Fire at something in front of an AI without a good path of approach, switch to blackjack run to AI and make it sleep.

Shouldn't this easily be possible with throwing too?

[Oktokolo]

50 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Shouldn't this easily be possible with throwing too?

Maybe if i hold it a while to get the straight line trajectory. Didn't test. I just remember the throwing mechanic to be incredibly hard to predict.

[Kurshok]

It sounds like a pretty cool idea to me.

[datiswous]

On 3/21/2023 at 8:34 PM, snatcher said:

The question is, should we do it? I'd rather have Flashbombs revisited by the current devs.

You want precise throwing? The one reason I mostly don't use mines and bombs is that they're unreliable to throw to the right spot.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, datiswous said:

You want precise throwing? The one reason I mostly don't use mines and bombs is that they're unreliable to throw to the right spot.

I have no problem with dropping a mine, but rather with getting a NPC to step on it ;). As for throwing flash bombs, I imagine they are intended to be a last resort in case you are cornered in which you might throw them anywhere other than where you are looking. I can't imagine many situations in which I would throw them at far away targets, those can normally be avoided or distracted anyway.

Edited March 30, 2023 by wesp5

[snatcher]

I made up my mind.

In the next release the "Moonlight" recipe will blind AI if AI is close enough to the initial blast (think of gas arrows).

Blindness isn't triggered by a bright light: a high concentration of the active Moonlight mixture causes a burning sensation to the eyes. This means if players want to purposely blind AI they will have to fire the arrow to their feet or directly to their body. All this regardless of whether the player has Flashbombs or not.

Edited April 7, 2023 by snatcher
typo