Subtitles - Possibilities Beyond 2.11

[stgatilov]

I see you are trying to make subtitles system more complicated, but I don't understand what's the reason.
And I prefer not to add complexity/normalization if not needed.

If someone needs visual cues, he most likely needs them for all sounds.
Why do you suggest adding another parameter about visual cues to subtitles definitions?

[Geep]

48 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

I see you are trying to make subtitles system more complicated, but I don't understand what's the reason.

"I think we have an opportunity to enlarge the potential TDM community to include deaf players, or those who like to play games with sound off."  Even for the existing TDM players, some degree of customization, e.g., font choice, would be an improvement.

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I prefer not to add complexity/normalization if not needed.

Nobody argues with that, provided the bar to expressing need is not too high. Certainly TDMs large number of CVars hints that a bit of complexity has been tolerated in the past to achieve improvements and allow for satisfying individual needs and preferences.

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If someone needs visual cues, he most likely needs them for all sounds.

The TDM subtitle system I feel was meant to eventually cover all game sounds, so yes. (If you're talking about screen-reader software, it will not understand game context.)

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Why do you suggest adding another parameter about visual cues to subtitles definitions?

That's one of 2 possible methods I mentioned to help implement per-subtitle visual cues. There are no doubt others.

It's ok with me if things like cue customization doesn't start to happen until TDM 2.13. I'm just trying to lay out a pathway through the terrain, which sadly seems more fraught than ideal.

 

[datiswous]

16 hours ago, Geep said:

Maybe too, stgatilov, you could sneak in a related option to suppress "Just you wait!" audio and only play story clips!)

This isn't already possible with ingame conversations?

[Geep]

9 hours ago, datiswous said:

This isn't already possible with ingame conversations?

Hm, I wasn't being too serious here, just riffing off stgatilov's note of the weariness of TDM veterans hearing the canned barks yet again. If there is an existing way for the player to suppress the audio of everything except "story" clips throughout the entire game, I'm unaware of it.

[datiswous]

Well on page Cutscenes Part_3: Lighting, Placing the Player, and Conversations there is this code:

"def_vocal_set" "atdm:ai_vocal_set_mute"

Would be nice if this can be done for all ai in a certain radius (as a Conversation Command?). In general this would be nice, because currently it is advised to do this for all ai in the conversation.

[Geep]

What you are describing is a different use case (controlled by the mapper rather than the game player), but worthwhile.

[Geep]

There's a problem with Lady02 sound clips. A number of them are untrimmed, having dead air at the end up to modulo 5 seconds. Out of 310 sound clips, counts of suspect clips are:

• 69 at exactly 5 seconds
• 15 at exactly 10 seconds
• 4 at higher values, modulo 5 seconds

If a clip has, say, 3 seconds of dead air, I don't want to keep showing the subtitle during those 3 seconds.

Solutions are:

1) trim the clips. The best solution, but a good amount of work (that I hate doing. Any volunteers?)

2) use SRT in each case to end the subtitle early. This is a fair amount of extra work for me, for those clips that otherwise would not need SRT (namely, the 5 second and some of the 10 second ones). But I'll do this if (1) and (3) seem out of reach.

3) Change the -dx command so it can take a negative value, and end the subtitle early. It would still take some effort to determine the -dx value, but less than (2), and with less file proliferation. @stgatilov, is this viable/easy?

EDIT: Reported to bugtracker as

https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6352

Edited December 7, 2023 by Geep
Add bugtracker link

[datiswous]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:48 PM, Geep said:

up to modulo 5 seconds

What is modulo seconds?

 

On 12/6/2023 at 10:48 PM, Geep said:

1) trim the clips. The best solution, but a good amount of work (that I hate doing. Any volunteers?)

Maybe there is a reason why they're longer?

 

Do you have the test mission pk4 for this? I would like to test creating the srt files if you have it.

 

Just a personal thought: I sometimes wonder what is the benefit to using inline at all. If I only use srt, I don't have to divide the subtitles in sets of inline and srt.

Edited December 7, 2023 by datiswous

[Geep]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

What is modulo seconds?

Sorry for the "math speak". By modulo 5 (aka just mod 5), I mean integer values of 5, 10, 15, etc., and referring to the duration in units of seconds. Since the duration is a float, we're really talking 5.000, 10.000, 15.000, etc.

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Maybe there is a reason why they're longer?

No good reason, IMHO.

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Do you have the test mission pk4 for this? I would like to test creating the srt files if you have it.

Not at this time. I only got about through about 50 voice clips in the spreadsheet, before it became obvious that there was this problem. My workflow doesn't generate the .subs file of a test mission (initially with all inline, with srt candidates flagged by comments) until the spreadsheet is done.

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Just a personal thought: I sometimes wonder what is the benefit to using inline at all. If I only use srt, I don't have to divide the subtitles in sets of inline and srt.

It's because the vocal set is chopped into individual voice clips, that the game individually invokes. So (unlike subtitling a movie or TDM video briefing), each unique voice clip must be represented by either a separate inline entry or srt file. The inline entry is an easier prep. It generally handles > 95% of a vocal set's clips. And would for Lady02 if the .ogg files had been properly trimmed.

[datiswous]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:24 PM, Geep said:

directional indicator

I think maybe the icon graphics could be more in line with the subtitles? Maybe have a white circle line with a grey semi-transparant background. And possibly a speach icon in the center, so it's more clear what it's for? Or possibly the dot should be the speach icon.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by datiswous

[Geep]

59 minutes ago, datiswous said:

I think maybe the icon graphics could be more in line with the subtitles?

Not sure what you mean... better centered horizontally? Not overlapping the top edge of the subtitles?

Keep in mind that the subtitles can stack 3 up, and the space between them is limited. This constraints both the size of the oval and what overlap may occur with the backing fields. If you had a scaled-down glyph of a talking head (instead of just a central dot), it may be unrecognizable as such. Dunno.

The current graphics are stgatilov's version. The movable red square indicator is a re-using of a graphic already used as a frob assistant.

[datiswous]

4 hours ago, Geep said:

The current graphics are stgatilov's version. The movable red square indicator is a re-using of a graphic already used as a frob assistant.

TDM is now in beta already. I think @stgatilov's version doesn't look good in-game graphic wise. So I wanted to point out possible improvements graphic wise. I don't like the used colors mostly.

[snatcher]

It does not look good in the game, no. Subs can be disabled and all this is Work In Progress so you are perfectly excused.

[Geep]

I can try to work up a variant design, with a white ring. Do you like the current size of the oval, or prefer my original "blue ring" design, that was wider but slightly less tall?

My original design was transparent inside, although the lower-half overlapped the neutral translucent rectangular backing field. I could try to provide the upper-half with a neutral translucency that would approximate the backing field. This would be approximate because the translucency would be provided in 2 separate ways (photoshopped vs. gui). The white line in that case could be very thin on the upper part, because the translucency would also define the shape. I thought it desirable to provide a sense that the oval was really a disk viewed in perspective, so the lower edge is thicker... but maybe you'd prefer a uniform-thickness white line all around?

[stgatilov]

21 hours ago, datiswous said:

TDM is now in beta already. I think @stgatilov's version doesn't look good in-game graphic wise. So I wanted to point out possible improvements graphic wise. I don't like the used colors mostly.

Just go ahead and propose another image
I'm not an artist at all.

[snatcher]

Here's a quick hack based on your good work. I know you don't want to do without backgrounds but I couldn't help it.

EDIT: Download removed. Check this post for the latest version.

Edited January 4 by snatcher

[datiswous]

Yeah that looks a bit better I think. The colored version wasn't bad, but looked a bit out of place.

[Geep]

You raised the oval further up from the text, but that will put it atop a different caption text when 2-3 are showing stacked simultaneously. So shouldn't change that aspect of implementation.

I see your mockup has a uniform opaque gray interior, rather than translucent. That would be easier to implement and integrate with the backing field.

@stgatilov, can you take it from here, with the .tga that @snatcher provided?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Geep
typo

[stgatilov]

The old oval had thicker bottom line to give the illusion of 3D slope.
The new oval is fully symmetric and looks like fully 2D shape.

Which one is better?

[Geep]

I suppose you could split the difference, making the line moderately thin but obvious at the lower edge but vanish at the upper edge, letting the gray interior carry the upper shape.

So, I prefer the 3D slope, but am OK without, if that's what others like.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Geep

[datiswous]

21 hours ago, stgatilov said:

The old oval had thicker bottom line to give the illusion of 3D slope.

This is better I think combined with no-color as example from Snatcher.

[stgatilov]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:23 PM, datiswous said:

This is better I think combined with no-color as example from Snatcher.

So, should I simply desaturate the current image, i.e. convert to grayscale?

[nbohr1more]

Sounds like the solution to me

[Geep]

After you do that, check to see if the now-white ring visually interferes with the white caption font. If so, the ring might need overall thinning. if not, good to go.

[datiswous]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:30 PM, Geep said:

You raised the oval further up from the text, but that will put it atop a different caption text when 2-3 are showing stacked simultaneously. So shouldn't change that aspect of implementation.

Well it should be placed above the subtitle block if possible, I think.