Would like to know different ways to do loot objectives?

[Skaruts]

I was thinking of trying something different for the loot objective in a mission I'm making. I don't really mind the traditional way, but sometimes it can get the player stuck, and I don't like having to think about a percentage of loot that seems fair (which, I think, depends highly on the mission's layout).

But I'm not sure how to go about this. My first thought was that I could make it optional, and show up in the list of objectives as something like (Optional) Get any loot you can find. I tried having it that way for a while and, personally, I think it's fine (except the objective logic doesn't work as I want it to; but that aside).

I'm not sure what makes loot fun. But I'm sure we all get some loot, even if it's entirely optional. 

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this, or even, if anyone has tried different things, I'd love to hear about it.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Skaruts

[thebigh]

I suppose it depends on mission goals. If the primary mission objective is to steal a certain item, an additional loot goal on top of that could be a bit superfluous. If it's a more open-ended exploration mission, where the point is just to break into houses and burgle everything, it's a lot better.

I don't think I've seen anyone make use of the difference between loot types. When was the last time you saw a mission that wanted you to steal 500 in gems?

The new "secrets" functionality effectively adds an objective to missions without being official or mandatory, which is nice.

When I put a loot goal in, I don't decide how much it should be until I've finished building it. Then I think something like, "On Easy mode, the player should be able to find half the loot excluding the secrets" and round that off to the nearest nice number. For Expert it might be 70 or 75%.

[Zerg Rush]

I think that despite being a thief, in TDM in many missions getting more or less loot has become secondary, but rather fulfilling different more complex objectives, finding certain things, investigating a conspiracy, discovering secrets, etc. Based on this, you can even add a little more realism regarding the amounts of stolen items, so as not to leave poor Garrett climbing and jumping with half a ton of gold on top. Or it may be, as I have seen in other games, that the protagonist loses mobility little by little because of the weight of the loot, until he gets it deposited somewhere temporarily or in the hands of an ally.  This would add a dimension of strategy and planning to the mission.

[datiswous]

Make the loot goal optional. Put the loot in hidden places. Don't use a lot of loot everywhere, put the loot in the hidden places and a couple of places elswhere. So it's about finding the hidden places and then the loot inside is easy to spot.

Make some (optional) objective around the loot goal, possibly finding out about them through a clue somewhere in the mission. Basically adding story to the loot goal. But if you add for example 3 of these (optional) loot objectives and that is most of the loot, then it's not so much a loot hunt and it keeps it interesting.

[Skaruts]

What if the loot objective wasn't even there, in cases where loot is entirely optional and without ties to the plot?

My current mission looks like this:

• Find Tasteless Bert's Recipe Journal
• (Optional) Get any loot you can find
• Get back out the way you came in

Seems rather redundant to have it there. Players will get loot if they want anyway.

Or could it confuse players, since it's a bit unexpected and unorthodox?

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skaruts

[ChronA]

Not all players respond to loot the same way I suspect.

For players who principally enjoy exploring, the loot objective doesn't serve a reward function at all. Instead, for them it is mostly a handy barometer for how close they are to seeing the whole level. For this group having a specific number to target that is at least 70-80% of the total loot on the map is important, but they wouldn't care if it is optional.

Then there are the power-fantasy roleplayers' whose joy is living out the dream of being a master thief. I think those players actually do want an obligatory objective and a specific target number, but they don't care as much about what that number is. They just get satisfaction from hitting a required target.

Conversely, players who come to roleplay or otherwise experience the story might be annoyed by having a loot goal at all. Picking up treasure gets in the way of them experiencing the story. In their minds it should be entirely up to them what they do or don't want to pick up. And of course there are also completionists, who don't need loot goals for the exact opposite reason. They will grab absolutely everything in the level of their own accord.

You can't make all of these groups happy no matter what you do. In the Thief games I'd wager loot objectives existed partially to make sure everyone picked up enough money to buy gear for the next level, but in TDM that mostly does not apply. So unless you are putting equipment sellers in your mission like Iris and reward looting that way, I don't think there is a right answer. People will do what they want and someone will feel like their toes are being stepped on no matter what you do. So do whatever makes you happy.

[Frost_Salamander]

21 hours ago, Skaruts said:

What if the loot objective wasn't even there, in cases where loot is entirely optional and without ties to the plot?

My current mission looks like this:

• Find Tasteless Bert's Recipe Journal
• (Optional) Get any loot you can find
• Get back out the way you came in

Seems rather redundant to have it there. Players will get loot if they want anyway.

Or could it confuse players, since it's a bit unexpected and unorthodox?

it's worth trying whatever you want to try and then see what the beta testers think. Just have a plan B ready to implement in case it goes over like a lead balloon. 

If there is no loot goal, the first thing people are going to ask is 'where is the loot goal?', so you just need to have an explanation that makes sense and provide that in the release thread, or even in the mission briefing (e.g. don't rob innocent people or something).

The only reason I make loot goals optional is to make players like myself happy, who are terrible at finding loot and don't want to spend hours searching everywhere before the mission completes.

 

[Skaruts]

I was writing the mission briefing and I ended up making the loot loosely tied to the goal, so I decided to keep it. Basically, the mission is a favor for a friend who isn't able to properly compensate you for it, but the victim is wealthy, so whatever loot you find along the way can serve as compensation for your trouble.  

 

1 hour ago, Frost_Salamander said:

If there is no loot goal, the first thing people are going to ask is 'where is the loot goal?'

Yea, that's exactly what I would expect, and I would also expect some players to be confused about whether they're supposed to loot or not.

 

1 hour ago, Frost_Salamander said:

The only reason I make loot goals optional is to make players like myself happy, who are terrible at finding loot

That's my motivation as well.

I just started replaying Thief 2 and I'm stuck in the first mission because I can't find enough gems... and it's driving me mad that I can't just move on. Same for T3's first mission. I have the game patched so the first mission is a real mission, and not just the tutorial, but then I can't move on because I need a 3rd special item and 30% more loot, even though it seems I've turned every stone...

It's annoying af.

(I know I can skip missions with a key combo, but I was hoping to avoid that.)